Flanders Field Museum or Memorial Museum Passchendaele?

[hillgorilla]

The Americans were in the area between Kemmel and Ypres, there is a US memorial near to Kemmel.

[Herekawe]

Hi

If you are driving across from Lille what about going via Messines (Mesen). You will pass Plugstreet Wood to get to Messines and driving past Messines see a couple of the large mine craters, Spanboekmolen, is right on the road and Peckam if you go a few hundred yards more you can easily see from above. Will cost you almost no time.

Then if you go a couple of miles west to Vierstaat there is an American Memorial to the 27th and 30th Divisions who were operating in this area in August 1918 on the N331 just south of Vierstaat as Hillgorilla says above.

Then you can turn around and head to Ieper its only 2 or 3 miles to the outskirts of town.

One thing Ginger I found when I first went there is that all these places are actually very close together. I am prone to what my family call "distance underestimation" and no doubt someone will correct me but from Mesen to Ypres is only 5-6 miles, its a couple of miles at most from the Passchendaele Museum at Zonnebeke to Tyne Cott and maybe 6-7 miles back to Ieper.

Last year when I went there was a large crowd at the Menin Gate, however as suggested we parked outside town and walked into town for dinner in the square, then back to the gate, once the crowd cleared no problem to drive back into town.

Edited

Cheers

James

[Old Scalyback]

Hi Ginger

If you take James advice and drive via Messines and stop at Spanbroekmolen you will be standing in the German front line. looking west towards Mount Kemmel and the Flemish alps! is the battlefield on which my wife's great uncle died right at the foot of the ridge on which you stand, behind you is the part of the lline in which Adolph Hitler served. Whatever route you take if you get off the new highways you will be driving through history, Holts guide will explain that history.

In London you might like to go to the National Archives or the British Library. You would need to apply for a readers ticket on arrival, for which a UK citizen requires photo id and proof of address ( a letter or bill from a government agency or utility company with your home address).you might also require a document showing where you are staying in London. I have enquired of the National archives what is required, a response may take 10 days. At the National archives you could read war diaries of medical units. There are 747 field ambulance war diaries of which 337 are digitised (western front), pick one from elsewhere and you will be handling the original document. The staff will be delighted to guide you through the procedures. The British Library has first editions of all the published histories including the Official history of the Great war and the procedures are just the same and the staff just as helpful. The archive are at Kew and the British Library at St Pancras. There will be up to an hours delay retrieving your order from the vaults and you could spend a kings ransom in the bookshop waiting for them, or have lunch. Your daughters will be bored rigid by these places, but they will be as safe in central London as they would be in manhatten, although wander outside and you could be in the south Bronx or worse Newark!

If we carry on much longer you will hit advice overload.

regards Brian

[catfishmo]

One thing Ginger I found when I first went there is that all these places are actually very close together. I am prone to what my family call "distance underestimation" and no doubt someone will correct me but from Mesen to Ypres is only 5-6 miles, its a couple of miles at most from the Passchendaele Museum at Zonnebeke to Tyne Cott and maybe 6-7 miles back to Ieper.

James

Messines is of particular interest to me as it played a part in the novel I just finished. Your comment about it being so close to Ypres made me think of something: If the Messine's blast was heard in London, the noise and shock waves must have felt like Armageddon to the soldiers in Ypres who I assume would not have known about the blast. Wasn't it at the time of Messine's that the unprecedented build up of soldiers was amassed in the salient for the big push?

~Ginger

[Herekawe]

Messines is a small town and when you get there you get good views. Has a NZ Memorial Park and various other things including a small museum. The Battle of Messines was in early June and the first part of the Battle of Ypres started July 31st so there may not have been much of a build up at that stage.

But for sure there would have been a heck of a bang especially as there are several mines closer to Ypres than Spanboekmolen and Peckham. Hill 60 and the Caterpillar for example - places you could also visit were the closest I think and you can still see Ypres easily from there.

James

[Bart150]

Nobody’s mentioned the German cemetery at Langemarck!

Its statues make that a really special experience.

Try to avoid seeing any photos of the site beforehand. Don't tell your companions what to expect. Then it will really make an impression on you all. Especially in the evening.

[Michelle Young]

I believe the statues have been taken away for restoration at present

Michelle

[Bart150]

Michelle, that would be a big disappointment.

However, some recent reviews on tripadvisor give the impression the statues are currently there.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g2616831-d2572748-Reviews-Langemark_Cemetery-Langemark_West_Flanders_Province.html

[bruce]

The statues are still at langemark, or at least three of them are. One of them has been removed for restoration. however, the entrance is now very different. outside is a pile of breeze blocks and cement, with a large board explaining. What is going on. Inside, between the entrance and the flower bed, there is a seven foot high wall of breeze blocks, which will funnel visitors in one direction, and do away with the view through the entrance to the statues. the board outside explains that the statues will be moved....again. All of this is "to improve visitor experience". A further side effect of the changes will be that the toilets disappear too. I have no idea why it is necessary to change what worked well.

As for teenagers over there, go to Essex Farm......if you follow the AstroTurf, you will get to the grave of Valentine Joseph Strudwick. The headstone says he was 15 when he died. He is not the youngest in the Salient, for John Condon lies buried in Poelcapelle British Cemetery, aged just 14. He, of course was not the youngest, for I seem to remember that there was a twelve year ld killed on board HMAS Sydney in the Indian Ocean.

I will concur with the opinions of the museums already expressed. Zonnebeke Chateau is a MUST. In Flanders Fields is nothing like as good. I would also consider going to the hotel grounds in Hooge, for it is only a euro each, and you can reach out and touch things there, lifting shell cases, seeing mine craters filled with water, go I to a German bunker, etc.

Bruce

[Old Scalyback]

Hi Ginger

You are right about the mines and the barrage at Messines being like Armageddon. The amount of soil thrown down the ridge has changed the topography as well as smothering some 70 men of the Royal Irish Rifles, now buried in Lone tree cemetery( halfway down the ridge),who advanced too close to the explosion because it was blown two minutes late. I have compared the modern survey map to the 1912 survey on which the trench maps were based, in an attempt to pinpoint the location of E1 trench on the modern map and the contour lines are significantly different.

If you are interested I have had a response from the National archives re readers ticket.

You do not have to have a UK address to register for a

Reader's Ticket. The requirements are the same for overseas and UK visitors.

Please see the attached link which also provides what identification is required

to obtain a readers

ticket.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/visit/readers-ticket.htm

Thank

you for your email, please contact us if there is any further query

Kind

Regards,

Grace Noonan

Document Services Advisor

Telephone +44 (0)20 8876

3444 EXT 2507

The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9

4DU

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

[David Filsell]

Somehow putting Langermarck on Tripderisor just doesn't seem to sit well wit me.

[JWK]

Re Langemarck German Cemetary

Perhaps this is not the best time of year to visit Langemarck.

They're renovating/restoring it at the moment, with apparently a lot of buildingwork going on, only part of the cemetary is accessible, and the Emil Krieger statues taken away.

They're reverting the cemetary back to what it looked like before 1984.

The "re-opening" is scheduled for 16th October 2015, when also the remains of I believe six German soldiers, which had been found in the last year or so, will be given a proper burial.

http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/langemark.html

https://twitter.com/FlandersBTour/status/603906040472727552

https://twitter.com/FlandersBTour/status/603546859630665728

And if the above makes you think "Aha, but I have a cunning plan! I'll go to Vladslo instead (to see the truly amazing statues by Käthe Kollwitz")" :

They're re-doing that as well...

Started Mid April, and it's scheduled to be finished by autumn 2015.....

http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/vladslo.html

*edit* : It's apparently 20 German soldiers who are finally laid to rest in october....

[Muerrisch]

Hooge Crater cemetery is just another cemetery;

Not to anyone who has a loved one there ................. no cemetery is "just another".

We shed tears there every year.

RIP Grandpa Rifleman James Creed

[WilliamRev]

Hooge Crater cemetery is just another cemetery;

Not to anyone who has a loved one there ................. no cemetery is "just another".

We shed tears there every year.

RIP Grandpa Rifleman James Creed

My quote was taken a little out of context: yes of course every cemetery is special, and Hooge Crater Cemetery has quite a few 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers, so I have spent a while there myself. What I meant was that it is a cemetery, and does not include a display of medical gubbins, as the first post suggested (these are presumably in the Hooge Crater Museum over the road).

Incidentally, anyone visiting the cemetery might like to know that if you leave the cemetery, turn sharp right and right again and take the path back alongside the eastern side of the cemetery, you can follow the path along the side of fields, and it takes you right across the late July 1915 battlefield. You end up on the road to Sanctuary Wood. It isn't a route that is obvious unless you know to look for it, but it is a proper path and won't annoy the farmer.

William

[steve345uk]

I visited both museums last month and concur with most comments so far - Passchendaele would be more interesting to all ages. In Flanders Field was okay, but was busier and had fewer and less varied exhibits. The only thing I didn't like about Passchendaele was that entrance to exhibits is very confined and can turn into a bit of scrum if you're unlucky enough to be sharing it with a school party. As many have pointed out the Passchendaele Museum isn't actually in Passchendaele!

Tyne Cot is a must.

[David Filsell]

Having criticised IFF earlier, I should have added that the bookshop is not too bad.

[catfishmo]

My thanks again to you all for you wonderful suggestions and input! I have revamped our itinerary and now feel more confident in knowing where to go, how long to allot, and what to see.

~Ginger

[Mark Hone]

The supposed age of John Condon when he died and indeed whether it is him buried in the grave at Poelkappelle has been called into serious question by careful research reported several years ago on this Forum.

[Aurel Sercu]

Bruce,

Your posting #34

"John Condon lies buried in Poelcapelle British Cemetery"

No he does not. (And he was older than 14. But that is another story. Or even two. And it would lead us too far away from the topic.)

(Should I put a smiley now ? Anyway, someone else is in his grave. And I am happy I can add that next week I'll be meeting a relative there. Looking forward to that very much !)

Aurel

[bruce]

dear Aurel

I bow to your superior knowledge. there are few people from who I would take info without checking, but you are one of them. if you say he isn't there, then he isn't.

Thanks for the correction.

Bruce

[Aurel Sercu]

Bruce,

Please don't bow ! You make me feel embarrassed. But I just couldnt help it. Maybe I am looking forward to meeting P.F.'s relatives next week too intensely.

(Sorry for hijacking this topic. Right now : let's move on with Passendale vs. Ypres Museums. Both of which I like ! )

Aurel

[dah]

Hi Ginger,

My own teenage daughter (now 16) has visited the Ypres battlefield with me a couple of times over the years.......and still can't understand why I keep returning there (and to the Somme) year after year. My wife and most of my friends are similarly puzzled, so it's not just a teenage thing

Perhaps you have to start with an awareness of the fragility and preciousness of human life. To be fair, I doubt I was thinking along those lines as a teenager and have needed a fair bit of 'life mileage' to get me to that realisation.

If they're like my own daughter (welded to her phone most of the time), your daughters will complain if you visit too many cemeteries.....as they have a tendency to seem 'all the same'.....and yet each have their own story to tell. Each has a small wall-mounted box, typically somewhere near the entrance. In here, you will find two folders. One tells you information about the cemetery (how many graves, how many 'knowns' and 'unknowns', when it was originated etc). The other folder is a 'visitor book' where you can leave some personal comment and read those of others. These comments can range from the banal to heartbreakingly moving. Also, people frequently leave other documents, photographs etc that really help bring the otherwise impersonal-looking graves 'to life'.

I also encourage you (and your daughters) to walk along the rows of graves reading the small epitaph created by the surviving family back home all those years ago. These never fail to bring tears to my eyes, reminding you of the emotional devastation that each grave represents....of the small children back home who grew up without a father.....who probably visited this grave in their older age etc.

I have taken several people to the battlefields over the years, with very mixed experiences. In my case, the majority have had only a mild curiosity and consequently don't particularly 'get it' until later, if at all. If you start with a respect and appreciation of the value of a human life, then you cannot help but be profoundly moved by what you will see.

Good luck!

All the best.,

David

[seb phillips]

I agree about Langemark. I was there on tuesday and it's a bit of a mess at the moment. I'm sure the building works are necessary but it does mean that the whole 'effect' is not there at the moment.

I was very impressed with the Passchendaele Museum, as always. Since I was there last they have completed the trench reconstruction and thats an excellent place to walk round. If it's a nice day, taking the Australian Walk route to Tyne Cot is also worth doing.

[sassenach]

There are also some new designated walking routes from the Pa'dale Museum; the one to Polygon Wood is worth doing.

[Mark Hone]

The earlier part of the Passchendaele Memorial Museum, wonderful as it is, can be a nightmare where groups are concerned; there simply is not enough room for more than a handful of people in each section. The staff do try to regulate the admission of groups but it can easily turn into a rugby scrum, as mentioned above. On our last tour, although we gave the party in front of us ( who had arrived late) a good head start and waited in the grounds for some time, when we went in we found that they were still in the first few rooms. Another group then almost immediately piled in behind us. It did get rather hairy for a few minutes. The later sections, housed in a purpose-built recent extension, have far more room. I'm not sure what they can do about the earlier part of the display, constrained as they are by the design of the original chateau.