RE Cap Badge

[DaveDocDavies]

UK Pals:

In my search for a replica WW1 RE cap badge, I have found an economical WW2 badge advertised for sale by a company here in US. Unfortunately, the online catalog photos are low resolution. Was there much change in the Corps' badge between the two wars? I can live with a change in metal, brightness; however, I'd prefer not to purchase an incorrect design. Suggestions would be appreciated.

Doc D

[Andrew Upton]

The only change in design was that the centre changed from GV (George the 5th, King of England during WW1) to GVI (George the 6th, King of England during WW2). I think it would be a better idea to look for a WW1 example, otherwise people will be pointing out this small error.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

late WW2 + Issue GVIR Ones were also made in Bi~Metal{WW1 {Geo V} & Early GeoVI ones were as you know "Brass"[Gilding Metal]}

This is a Relatively Common badge & you should be able to find a Genuine Example on an Online Auction,Etc @ a Very Reasonable Price,Probably cheaper than a Replica}

[CROONAERT]

Is it being described as a WW2 "economy" badge? If this is it, then it's not even made of metal. It's made of Bakerlite which is similar to plastic. These started appearing circa 1941. A WW1 "economy" RE badge is the same as the standard badge ,but doesn't have the cut outs (in other words its stamped out of sheet brass and is solid with no holes - there is a term for this but I can't remember it!)

Dave.

(PS why try and find a replica RE badge? The originals aren't much more expensive than the copies! )

[DCLI]

Here is my dad's WW2 RE badge. The l of the Vl is quite difficult to see.

regards

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

. A WW1 "economy" RE badge is the same as the standard badge ,but doesn't have the cut outs (in other words its stamped out of sheet brass and is solid with no holes - there is a term for this but I can't remember it!)

Non~Voided

[CROONAERT]

. A WW1 "economy" RE badge is the same as the standard badge ,but doesn't have the cut outs (in other words its stamped out of sheet brass and is solid with no holes - there is a term for this but I can't remember it!)

Non~Voided

That's it! (I had "avoided" in my head, but thought, no, it can't be!!! )

Cheers,

Dave.

[harribobs]

so what is 'voided' in relation to a badge?

i had assumed it was a blank portion of the badge but i really don't know

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

so what is 'voided' in relation to a badge?

i had assumed it was a blank portion of the badge but i really don't know

The "Voided " Part is for Example {See JPG}the Spaces Between the Spokes on an Artillery Badge Wheel,or in the case of an RE Badge the Space around the "GVR" in the Centre,in a "Voided" Badge it is removed,in a Non~Voided Example it is left,as a Time saving economy,though costlier in Scrap Metal not being recovered,

Non~voided RA Badge Note Wheel Spokes{or rather the Gaps Between & also the Crown ,which is usually Voided,ie has Gaps below Arms of the Crown}

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

....And the more usual "Voided" or Type with the Spokes Spaces & Gap Between The Arms of the Crown & the Cap Removed

[harribobs]

Thanks Harry

I get it!

[DaveDocDavies]

Thanks all who replied!

I only asked about the replica WW2 badge because it surfaced on a catalog search. I ahven't ordered anything yet.

Doc D

[harribobs]

Hi Doc

this site has approx a lot of RE badges for sale, no connection to me but i've used him before

the references in the left column are kipling and king ref. book

badge site

cheers

chris

[DaveDocDavies]

Chris,

Thanks for the site ... lot's of choices! With GrandDad's entry in 1915, I'd need to pick an early war version. In US services, other ranks wear silver devices, officers wear gold / gilt plated insignia.

Doc

[harribobs]

Doc

My understanding of the UK badges is generally OR would wear brass (or gilded) and officers silvered

whether this applies to the RE, i am not sure, but i'm sure someone will correct me!

chris

[Graeme Fisher]

I really can't believe that anyone would pay the prices on this website for one of the most commonly available cap badges.

There should be absolutely no reason why anyone should purchase a copy of Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Army service Corps or RAMC badges from either the first or second world wars. There were hundreds of thousands of gunners, sappers medics etc, and the cap badges are two a penny (well....)

This forum desperately needs a dealer or links to a dealer who is trustworthy and honest, rather than these robbing charlatans.

For my money, online, try http://freespace.virgin.net/lew.shotton/index.htm or www.kellybadge.co.uk. Genuine RE badges shouldn't be more than £5.

Good hunting

Graeme

[DaveDocDavies]

Chris: Thanks for the correction! Cruising websites the past 24 hours I found OR wore the gilt, non-voided as issued.

Graeme: Thanks for further alternatives. I haven't found a US militaria shop carrying Great War cap badges yet (although I did find the restruck copy of GVIR for $6.95).

I sent an e-mail to the CRE Museum Shop to see if they ever offer originals / copies (or might recommend a source). In the past, they recommended a bookseller so I could obtain a copy CRE History for Western Front.

Once again, thanks for all the replies!

Doc D

[harribobs]

I really can't believe that anyone would pay the prices on this website for one of the most commonly available cap badges.

There should be absolutely no reason why anyone should purchase a copy of Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers, Army service Corps or RAMC badges from either the first or second world wars. There were hundreds of thousands of gunners, sappers medics etc, and the cap badges are two a penny (well....)

This forum desperately needs a dealer or links to a dealer who is trustworthy and honest, rather than these robbing charlatans.

For my money, online, try http://freespace.virgin.net/lew.shotton/index.htm or www.kellybadge.co.uk. Genuine RE badges shouldn't be more than £5.

Good hunting

Graeme

mr shottons site

850 R ENGINEERS QVC GM £35

mr webbs site

850 R ENGINEERS QVC GM £22

so who is robbing who?

[Graeme Fisher]

Graeme

mr shottons site

850 R ENGINEERS QVC GM £35

mr webbs site

850 R ENGINEERS QVC GM £22

so who is robbing who?

Harribobs

One of the significant features of Mr Shotton's site is that he doesn't offer one of every variety of cap badge produced, there are quite significant gaps in his stock. This is because, as with many dealers in genuine product, he can only offer what is available at the time; laws of supply and demand at work here.

Lew's prices are generally fair; I'm happy to deal with him even tho' I have to wait for a year or two for him to advertise something I especially want.

Mr. Webb, I'm sure, provides a wonderful service, but the disclaimer about restrikes, the wide and constant availability of what should be quite rare badges, and the lack of collar badges and shoulder titles offered by most genuine dealers put ME off.

I would rather spend my cash, on badges at least, with a reputable dealer.

I have no axe to grind here, you pays yer money, etc, but I don't knowingly support people who pass off modern restrikes as genuine pieces, at genuine prices.

If you're happy, then fair enough. I was just offering a couple of suppliers online who I trust.

Graeme

[Graeme Fisher]

Or there's this one:

http://www.militarycollectables.co.uk

Visited this one personally, bought and sold stuff, absolutely genuine and realistic prices!

Graeme

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Doc

My understanding of the UK badges is generally OR would wear brass (or gilded) and officers silvered

It would depend on the Regiment,initially most regiments,especially Line Regiments /Cavalry;wore Bi~Metal cap Badges{ie 'Brass'{Gilding Metal} & White Metal{Nickel Silver}} the Corps wore Gilding Metal,as a Rule,as the war Progressed All Brass "Economy" versions of Line & Cavalry Badges were introduced in most cases,Officers had worn Gilt & Silver/Plate Cap Badges,but mostly wore Brown "Bronzed" SD Badges that didnt Glint in Service Dress

[harribobs]

Harribobs

One of the significant features of Mr Shotton's site is that he doesn't offer one of every variety of cap badge produced, there are quite significant gaps in his stock. This is because, as with many dealers in genuine product, he can only offer what is available at the time; laws of supply and demand at work here.

Lew's prices are generally fair; I'm happy to deal with him even tho' I have to wait for a year or two for him to advertise something I especially want.

Mr. Webb, I'm sure, provides a wonderful service, but the disclaimer about restrikes, the wide and constant availability of what should be quite rare badges, and the lack of collar badges and shoulder titles offered by most genuine dealers put ME off.

I would rather spend my cash, on badges at least, with a reputable dealer.

I have no axe to grind here, you pays yer money, etc, but I don't knowingly support people who pass off modern restrikes as genuine pieces, at genuine prices.

If you're happy, then fair enough. I was just offering a couple of suppliers online who I trust.

Graeme[

Graeme

If you have no axe to grind why are you libeling Athony Webb?

first you called him a 'robbing charlatan' then after I point out he was cheaper than Lew Shotton, you are saying he is not a 'reputable dealer'

The disclaimer on Webb's site reads :-

"In all collections there will probably be a percentage

deemed not to be original. Some restrikes are many years old.

Some having been made from original dies.

In view of the never ending controversy of the genuineness

or otherwise of badges, we offer a money back guarantee."

I don't know how long you having been collecting, I don't know what you collect (my collection is on my website) If you didn't realise it, there are more restrikes and copies than originals of some badges

The disclaimer on the site is a true and honest evaluation of that FACT, and NOTE the last sentence "we offer a money back guarantee" which is offered on lew shotton's site as well.

Reading your post it would seem you are not happy because he has a large stock, but you are also not happy because he doesn't stock some items.

I'm confused about where your definetion of a GENUINE DEALER comes from, but I am more concerned that you feel it's your right to libel a dealer for no good reason at all

chris

[Graeme Fisher]

Chris

There was never an intention to libel Mr. Webb, and I did not call him a charlatan directly, although the sweeping generalisation used may have given that impression. I apologise unreservedly.

Perhaps the point that I was trying to make was missed. There are a good number of people who sell items of debatable origin in the world of militaria, some offer them as genuine (which they all are; they are all cap badges, just never worn in a military cap...) and some sell modern reproductions at modern reproduction prices.

If there were a gap in my modest collection that could be temporarily filled with a four quid restrike, then I see no harm in that.

If I spent a reasonable sum, say twenty quid in what purported to be a genuine WW1 issue Territorial cap badge, only to discover it was made two years ago in a back street in Birmingham, I would be annoyed. And yes, I have been had over in the past.

I have a mistrust of dealers who offer all sorts of rarities at reasonable prices. I tend to spend my money over the table at Militaria fairs with people who are held up as reputable amongst the dealing fraternity. And yes, these people often have significant gaps in the badges and insignia that they have for sale. And the rare stuff generally costs big bucks.

The issue of restrikes has been fiercely debated in the twenty-odd years that I've been collecting, and there's no real answer. Some of the modern copies produced in the last ten years by a firm local to me have fooled experts. Every collector has their own benchmark on what is 'right' or 'wrong', real or fake, genuine or restruck.

I meant no offence to you or Mr. Webb.

Graeme

[johnreed]

Please fing attached my wifes Grandfathers RE Cap Badge from WW1 it still is in good condition. He was a Tunneler(He was a changed man when he came back from the war). We have his medals and Cap Badge, also the medals of his two brother who did not come back.

Regards

John

[harribobs]

I meant no offence to you or Mr. Webb.

Graeme, and none taken

Please fing attached my wifes Grandfathers RE Cap Badge from WW1 it still is in good condition. He was a Tunneler(He was a changed man when he came back from the war). We have his medals and Cap Badge, also the medals of his two brother who did not come back.

John, I'm pleased to hear your grandfather came back and that you still have his medals and cap badge, my grandfather also came back from France a changed man. he came out of the worst after 6 months but suffered from nightmares for years after whenever he was reminded of it

the badge is in great condition, have you thought of mounting it with the medals?

chris