trenchtrotter Posted 27 May , 2015 Share Posted 27 May , 2015 On a trip today in E Yorks picked up a nice sleepy 98/05 in scabbard with frog. Clearly all been together for years. Blade is marked Crown / W / 15 /squiggle fraktur. On one side of ricasso Crown over Erfurt and on other side Gottlieb Hammersfahr / pyramid symbol /Solingenfoche. Did Erfurt subcontract or was the other mark the blade supplier or steel supplier. All in good condition. Some light rust but scabbard sound and after a gentle rub with WD 40 much black paint evident. Catch works well and leather frog sound. All wear and scuff marks match. £120 a fair price I thought. TT Blade excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 27 May , 2015 Share Posted 27 May , 2015 On a trip today in E Yorks picked up a nice sleepy 98/05 in scabbard with frog. Clearly all been together for years. Blade is marked Crown / W / 15 /squiggle fraktur. On one side of ricasso Crown over Erfurt and on other side Gottlieb Hammersfahr / pyramid symbol /Solingenfoche. Did Erfurt subcontract or was the other mark the blade supplier or steel supplier. All in good condition. Some light rust but scabbard sound and after a gentle rub with WD 40 much black paint evident. Catch works well and leather frog sound. All wear and scuff marks match. £120 a fair price I thought. TT Blade excellent Sounds like a wonderful find! And the price sounds good also! Especially with a frog - any markings on that? Quick reply as time to put the lads to bed...Carter vol I p.75, has this to say: Famous for drop-forgings, and so makers of blade-blanks but also made complete ones (remember there was a great demand for 98/05's in late 1914 - early 1915 and contracts being issued everywhere). Crown Erfurt mark on the right-hand side ricasso? I.e., with blade point to right? Did this begin life as a nA or aA? Should be nA as that is what Carter has listed and so made late-ish 1915 (Ersatz production peaked in the summer, 98/05 production takes over by the Autumn). Carter thought, though, that some of these GH/Erfurt ones pre-dated the flashguard rule and mentions an example with a number (44) on the quillon. He also implied that he thought that the Erfurt mark was added when the flashguards were fitted... BUT What kind of pyramid mark? Looking forward to a picture of this! And the 'squiggle' fraktur! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 27 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 27 May , 2015 Hi Julian, Thanks as ever. Well as a novice for bayonets whether it's a a/A or n/A I don't know but it has a flash guard. The Erfurt symbol is to the right as you describe. The pyramid is as you would draw one to include two faces. Will post pics but as am at Moms away from camera and desk top. Phone pics come in too large. No marks on frog but it is right and has been with bayonet and scabbard so long they have marked each other. A real sleeper. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 May , 2015 Share Posted 28 May , 2015 Hi Julian, Thanks as ever. Well as a novice for bayonets whether it's a a/A or n/A I don't know but it has a flash guard. The Erfurt symbol is to the right as you describe. The pyramid is as you would draw one to include two faces. Will post pics but as am at Moms away from camera and desk top. Phone pics come in too large. No marks on frog but it is right and has been with bayonet and scabbard so long they have marked each other. A real sleeper. TT Happy to help! The a/A and n/A terminology is to differentiate between those with high ears and no flashguard (a/A = alter Art = 'old pattern) and those with low ears and a flashguard (n/A = neuer Art = 'new pattern), and started to be used in 1915 when the S.98/05 n/A was introduced into service. So you have a 98/05 n/A. As for the mark, then as I understand it, the maker's name should be to the right of the pyramid in three lines, GOTTLIEB/ HAMMERSFAHR/ SOLINGEN FOCHE(! = a district of Solingen), although it could have GOTTLIEB HAMMERSFAHR over the pyramid and SOLINGEN FOCHE, below, which I understand would be unusual - Carter's reference to what type of mark should be there is rather ambiguous, and I am at work and so can't double check with what Williams' shows in his book... Whatever, you can get a look at the marks on p.2 and 3 here: http://strazors.com/uploads/images/articles/gottlieb_hammesfahr.pdf Best - and congratulations on a very nice find! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 28 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 28 May , 2015 It's the latter variant of the Gottlieb mark. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 29 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2015 Some pics. On the underside of the ricasso ie opposite where the crown / W / 15 / fraktur mark ius a C or crescent on its side, no star. Indicative of Turkish service? Would this be correct and if so post war or during. From my research the vast majority of 98/05s sent to Turkey were post 1916 and from Mauser factory. Also on one of my other 98/05s the one with no date or makers mark there appears G G G stamped on the underside as mentioned above. Any ideas? Hope the photos are ok? T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 May , 2015 Share Posted 29 May , 2015 Heck, just packed up my books as the painters come in tomorrow, and I am off for a week travelling... But I do know that some 89/05's have markings on the bottom part of the ricasso. You are right to think that most Turkish ones are dated to 1917, with apparently 95% or so of these being Mauser, but I can't recollect any with a crescent mark. However, the crescent mark on the German made Turkish ersatz bayonets is clearly that, a crescent, as is the crescent mark on the German-made Turkish bayonets, with a fat 'belly' and points, and cannot be confused with a 'C'. Can't comment at all on the other marking, but it sounds interesting! Your example does have what Carter indicates is the 'proper' version of the Gottlieb-Hammersfahr mark for a 1915 product - as I wrote earlier, his text is a little bit ambiguous but he does refer to and show what he seems to indicate is a first version mark, and which is what you have. Incidentally, yours is one of those 'bent' 98/05's, with the top edge of the blade sloping down at a slight angle from the 'horizontal' level of the grip/hilt.... I have seen a few of these and don't quite know what it means - company variation? BTW, lovely crisp spine markings! Best, Julian PS: the frog certainly looks 'lived in' - it is slightly bent from true vertical thanks to the weight of the bayonet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 29 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2015 Thanks Julian, Whilst I will never cross over completely foresaking all I think I am slowley becoming "interested" in bayonets especially 07s and the German 98/05. So many makers etc to colect...arrragggh! I still need to get a 84/98. Bham Militaria Fair soon and they usually have a few out. I passed on the one I mentioned on another thread but have seen another 1916 dated one and the same manufacturer as above by chance. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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