Givenchy - The Duck's Bill

[Neil Mackenzie]

Whilst I know roughly where The Duck's Bill is located many of the maps/accounts I have seen show it in the German front line. The exception is the Canadian account of the 15 June action (in their official history) which indicates it was in their front-line. The two lines were only 75 yards apart at this time so there is not a great difference. I suspect the Canadian account is correct, but does anyone have a view - or even a map of June 1915 which shows this for sure.

Many thanks

Neil

[rolt968]

I don't have the information to hand, but will look for it. I know of a Canadian who was buried at the Duck's Bill. His grave was subsequently lost.

RM

[towisuk]

Using the NLS trench maps, here's an overview

regards

Tom

[regimentalrogue]

This map is from The Official Story of the Canadian Expeditionary Force, Sir Max Aitken, M.P., Hodder and Stoughton, 1916.

[Neil Mackenzie]

This is my problem.

Tom - thanks for the overlay but what is the date of your map? The Ducks Bill is in red which means it was in German hands. It also shows the Red Dragon Crater which means, if memory serves, that the trench map is after 22 June.

RR - Thanks for the Canadian map - it seems to show The Ducks Bill in the Canadian lines but also much nearer the Chemin de Givenchy than the trench map does.

Neil

[rolt968]

Pte George C Ritchie, 63753, 3 CEF, kia 17 Jun 1915.

was "buried in Duck's Bill"

1/40.M. Sh. 36c. A.9. D.2.1. (sic)

(CEF burial record ancestry)

Is this any help?

RM

[Neil Mackenzie]

Thanks RM

I make that trench location in the Hatfield Road trench (see the green dot on the map below). Very close to the Duck's Bill but again in a slightly different place to the examples given above.

(this map is one of Croonaert's)

Thanks

Neil

[rolt968]

Thanks Neil,

That adds to my knowledge as I had never actually looked at exactly where George Ritchie was buried. I'll try to track down the 3 CEF war diary. (I think it was a casualty of a hard drive failure!)

RM

[Guest]

17th Bn London Regt war diary for May 1915 has two detailed maps of this area.

[regimentalrogue]

This map, from the War Diary of the 1st Canadian Infantry Battalion (June 1915), shows trenches in the vicinity of the Duck's Bill.

[MDaws]

Hi Neil

I am coming very late to your thread on the Duck's Bill at Givenchy. I am currently researching my grandfather who fought with the 3rd Toronto Regiment (3rd Battalion - 1st Brigade CEF) on the 15 - 16 June 1915, and was critically wounded late on the afternoon of the second day. He survived but unfortunately lost his right leg. You are probably aware of Nicholson's account - but just in case, on p. 104 he gives the following description: "No man's land in the Canadian sector varied from 500 yards wide on the right down to 75 yards east of Givenchy, where a semi-circular sandbagged parapet, known as the Duck's Bill, protruded towards the enemy's line." Suggesting that at the time the Bill was very much a part of the British front line.

Do you by any chance have a detailed set of trench maps for the battle?

I have been trying to link the various descriptions - eg. the official war diaries that talk of an attack towards H2 - H3 etc, and the terms used by the soldiers found in Aitken and Adami (such as Stony Mountain and Dorchester) - with contemporary maps of the area. Haig's description of the planned attack sent to Sir John French talks of a 'moated farm' at J15, which I think must be either Stony or Dorchester. I have attached a trench map from the National Army Museum archive that you have probably already sourced. The map reflects the position as at 15 - 16 June. J15 is in the top right corner. I have also attached a contemporaneous hand drawn sketch from the Brigade diary showing the trenches in the area around the Duck's Bill.

Best regards

Mark

 

 

[Michelle Young]

Trench maps aren’t generally that accurate for 1915. @WhiteStarLine might be able to assist. 

[Howard]

Ducks Bill Extension is at 36c.A.16.a.4.7 and Ducks Bill Trench at 36c.A.9.d.99.28.

Both were found in TrenchMapper by putting just Duck into the Advanced Search and following the results list.

Once a map has been found, use the drop down in the lower left panel to see others, including two aerial photos.

Howard

 

[MDaws]

Michelle and Howard - many thanks for your help. Much appreciated.

Mark

[WhiteStarLine]

2 hours ago, Michelle Young said:

Trench maps aren’t generally that accurate for 1915

As @Michelle Young says!  They were not as well surveyed, the use of aerial photography as a key correlator was in its infancy and the re-surveying and accurate contouring had not yet been done / applied.

Luckily for Mark, there is an undated map that has been georeferenced in TrenchMapper that has the same trench names and positions as the extract he provided.  This will help us get an approximate location on a modern map, which is what he is looking for.  There is also a December 1915 map on TrenchMapper but things had changed just a little by then.

Mark's first map has H.2 and H.3.  The one below shows H.1 and H.3.  If we continue along Shaftesbury Avenue where it intersects Oxford Road and follow that into the German lines, that is where H.2 appears to be.  The moated farm is shown at J.15 in both maps.

Underneath are the modern locations.  In a 1917 or 18 map, we could stand in confidence at the modern location.  I've left a trace of the historic map visible so that you can see the clear differences between historic and modern.  This simply reflects what Michelle stated at the outset.  If Mark wanted more accuracy, I would accept J.15 and H.1 as pretty good.  I would personally plot H.2 and H.3 50 metres NW so that H.3 sits on the modern road T junction.  Then you will know where the 3rd Battalion fought. 

[MDaws]

@WhiteStarLine - thank you the two attachments. They are enormously appreciated. 

Re H2: this was the site of a mine detonation at 5.59 pm on the 15 June 1915, a minute before the assault. The intent had been to distract the enemy, but unfortunately the mine had been dug just shy of H2 due to underground water being discovered.  A decision was therefore taken to increase the initial charge within the mine to compensate. When the charge was detonated it killed, wounded and buried a number of British / Canadian soldiers. The subsequent Duck's Bill explosion was much larger by comparison, but by then my grandfather had been evacuated to a string of hospitals and convalescent homes in France and England. He was badly injured when a bag of bombs exploded at his side, taking away his leg. I suspect the bombs were the pre-Mills unstable variety which could well have been manufactured on site prior to the battle. The bag started 'smoking' when it was being carried up a communications trench which could well have been Shaftsbury Avenue. He tried to swing the heavy bag up and out of the trench, but it exploded at waist height.

Once again, many thanks for your help.

Best regards, Mark

 

[Howard]

This is the first of Mark’s maps fitted to a relatively accurate map from Nov 1917 using a Thin Plate Spline transformation. This distorts the hand drawn map to force a fit at specific places as shown in yellow. These are Ground Control Points in QGIS.

This gives H2 as close to 44a.A.9.d.9.3. as marked by the yellow point 8.  You can enter that into TrenchMapper and then select from any of the maps.

Howard

[brianmorris547]

Not much more to add about the location of H2 I think Howard has it as near as possible.

The WD of 21 Infantry Brigade of 7 Div 15/06/1915 records the mine "near H2 in front of the Canadians" and the WD of 176 Tunnelling Co RE records "Good portion of the German Trench and also the German Shaft at H2 wrecked".

Brian

[jay dubaya]

A couple of aerial views of the battlefield and its craters although later in the war.

December 1916

( source WO 95/1605 - 16th Inf Bde Dec 1916)

April 1918

(source IWM Q 41961 - better zoomable image here)

[MDaws]

Thank you to all for your help.

Mark

[Old Forge]

Strangely, the 3rd map down the Trench Mapper drop list (Name: Douai, La Bassee, Lens Sheet: 36C Scale: 1:5,000 Edition: 1915 Town Plan . Printed 1915 Id: m_003495) is overlaid on Google Earth with quite an offset to the north east. Is this a common problem?

Richard

 

 

Edited 27 June , 2023 by Old Forge
Adding photo

[Howard]

1 hour ago, Old Forge said:

Strangely, the 3rd map down the Trench Mapper drop list (Name: Douai, La Bassee, Lens Sheet: 36C Scale: 1:5,000 Edition: 1915 Town Plan . Printed 1915 Id: m_003495) is overlaid on Google Earth with quite an offset to the north east. Is this a common problem?

Richard

 

 

Richard, no, this is not common. Of the 6,500 maps we have a tiny fraction have required re-working.

I shall do that one again later.

Having said that, the area around the La Bassee canal was very badly mapped so many early maps of the area cannot but fitted accurately, one has to resort to a Thin Plate Spline transformation where maps fit where they touch.

Howard

[Old Forge]

Many thanks Howard, I wouldn't have mentioned it except the portion above is exactly where 2/Wilts attacked on 15-16th June 1915. I appreciate all the incredible work to make both the maps and the georeferencing available - it's a treasure trove!

All the best,

Richard

[Neil Mackenzie]

It has been over 8 years since I started this so many thanks to everyone who has contributed some fantastic maps.

Neil