Mustard Gas & TB

[Susie H]

Hello

The story in my family was that my grandfather died as a result of mustard gas. He served in the RAMC in Salonica / Greece.

He was pensioned out of the army 1 January 1919. At the end of 1919, on my fathers birth certificate, his occupation is shown as 'army pensioner and barman'. My grandfather died 1925 and his death certificate shows that he died of 'Pulmonary Tuberculosis'. I assumed that the story of mustard gas was incorrect however I have recently read a book which states ' the army wouldn't give mother a pension because he hadn't got TB from being gassed'. This suggests that there may be a link between the two.

Can anyone advise me whether there is a link with mustard gas and TB or would being exposed to mustard gas damage a persons lungs so that they were more susceptible to TB. I'd really love to clarify this as unfortunately my grandfathers army records have not survived.

Thanks

Sue

[ss002d6252]

Strangely enough I've just posted about a man who was discharged due to T.B. but who had also been gassed - the cause of death was listed as being due to gas damage. Unfortunately it's unclear what the correlation between the two was.

Craig

[Guest]

Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer - Saturday 29 August 1925 (British Newspaper Archive)

Gas Poisoning Leads to Tuberculosis

" That gas poisoning can lead to tuberculosis was shown at an inquest at Huddersfield on Thursday on Freddie Webb (30) motor body builder and joiner , of 12, Thornton Lodge Road, Lockwood. Webb was twice gassed and twice wounded during the war, and there was no history of consumption in the family. Some time after his discharge, he had gas poisoning attacks, and, later, was a patient of a sanatorium. Dr J W Hirst said that death resulted from tuberculosis, of which mustard gas poisoning was a pre-disposing and contributory cause. "

Mike

[Guest]

Hartlepool Mail - Wednesday 13 June 1923 (British Newspaper Archive)

Poison Gas as Medicine

" Chlorine, mustard gas, and Lewisite must seem to every man who took part in the Great War as about the most unmitigatedly evil substances ever concocted by man or devil. Yet a scientific correspondent tells us, says the "Daily News" of chlorine as a preventative of influenza, mustard gas as a protection from tuberculosis and Lewisite as a cure for paralysis and locomotor ataxia. There is, of course, nothing new in the adaption of deadly poisons to medicinal uses, but these particular transmutations are the last of the kind that would have been looked for by the man on the street. May the day soon come when a conference at Geneva will restrict the production of these poisons to the scale which their medicinal uses demand, along with opium and cocaine. "

Mike

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Can anyone advise me whether there is a link with mustard gas and TB or would being exposed to mustard gas damage a persons lungs so that they were more susceptible to TB.

There is no conclusive statistical evidence of mustard gas being a causative factor of TB.

Plenty of anecdotal evidence, as lots of soldiers who were gassed would later develop TB, but there again lots of gassed soldiers didn't develop TB. And lots of ungassed soldiers and civilians who did.

I don't think that 100 years down the line we will ever get research done that will prove it one way or the other, but the most likely short answer is -No.

I have recently read a book which states ' the army wouldn't give mother a pension because he hadn't got TB from being gassed'. This suggests that there may be a link between the two.

I disagree. I read it as "Man died of TB. Gassing doesn't cause TB.Therefore he didn't die as a result of military service. Therefore no pension."

I suppose you could read it as " Man died of TB. Gassing causes TB, but not in this man's case . Therefore no pension".

[IRC Kevin]

The close confines between men in dugouts must have been of significance in the spread of TB, but with soldiers being supplied with milk from within the theatre of war, I do wonder how the rates of bovine TB in France and Belgium compared to those in the UK in those days of pre-pasteurisation. Has anyone ever seen accurate statistics about this?

[auchonvillerssomme]

A condition or injury that is debilitating and/or damages the body might decrease the ability of the immune system to fight off infection. Injury to the lungs from gas won't cause TB but it will certainly exacerbate existing conditions or make you more susceptible to it.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

A condition or injury that is debilitating and/or damages the body might decrease the ability of the immune system to fight off infection. Injury to the lungs from gas won't cause TB but it will certainly exacerbate existing conditions or make you more susceptible to it.

Mustard gas derivatives are used as anti cancer drugs and do definitely suppress white cells and immunity. And I agree that injury to the lungs will excacerbate conditions like Chronic bronchitis. "Common Sense" dictates that other respiratory diseases would also be caused or worsened, but the evidence for the gases predisposing to a higher incidence of TB is lacking.

[Susie H]

I would like to thank everyone who took the trouble to give me advice concerning this matter

Many thanks

Sue

[Old Scalyback]

My Grandfather Was a Cheshire Bantam and was Gassed on the Somme in August 1916, Reclassified as B3 he was transferred to the Labour corps and on his death in 1947 in an infectious disease hospital cause of death was pneumonia, he was in receipt of a war disability pension.

[rickpreston@nasuwt.net]

This is a most fascinating discussion.

[dink_and_pip]

TB is caused by a bacterial infection. Gas damage to the lungs may increase the chance of getting TB and may even show on xray the same - misdiagnosis. The only way of proofing TB infection is by bacterial culture - growing them.

[bierast]

Mustard gas derivatives are used as anti cancer drugs and do definitely suppress white cells and immunity.

This is quite true though counterintuitive, since mustard gas is also strongly carcinogenic and mutagenic. It certainly contributed to many premature deaths due to cancer.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Gas damage to the lungs may increase the chance of getting TB.

Well yes, one would have thought so, but there's no statistical evidence to prove that it did.

The only way of proofing TB infection is by bacterial culture - growing them.

That's quite true today. Whereas common bacteria can be cultured in urine or sputum within 24-48hrs, a TB culture often takes up to 6 weeks for a result.

I'm not sure how much of that was done during the Great War though.

However, it is possible to demonstrate the presence of AFB- (Acid fast bacilli) on a sputum smear treated with Ziehl-Neelsen stain.

That can be done in minutes, but unfortunately, TB bacilli aren't the only things that show up under that technique.

However, it is a very useful screen for other respiratory infections.

I would have thought that in 1914-18, a Chest XRay and ZN stain of sputum would have been probably all the investigation that most soldiers got.

After all there was no anti-tuberculous therapy available in any case.

[seaJane]

I'm not sure how much of that was done during the Great War though.

Some, certainly - cf. R.M. Riggall, 'Spengler's pikrin method of staining tubercle bacilli.' Journal of the Royal Naval Medical Service, vol.15, no.2 (1915) p.203.

Given a bit more time to investigate I can probably identify more articles and what treatment they used (one of the side-effects of going ironclad was that the number of TB cases in the Navy rose dramatically).

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

a TB culture often takes up to 6 weeks for a result.

I'm not sure how much of that was done during the Great War though.

Some, certainly - cf. R.M. Riggall, 'Spengler's pikrin method of staining tubercle bacilli.' Journal of the Royal Naval Medical Service, vol.15, no.2 (1915) p.203.

Hi Jane,

Perhaps I didn't make myself very clear in my post.

The "that" in my statement referred to AFB culture (taking up to 6 weeks each time), rather than AFB staining, which was widespread.

I would be interested to know how much more investigation was done at that time for suspected pulmonary TB cases, and what treatments would have been offered.

Surgical teatments have been used in the past, but I seem to recall that these (induction of pneumothorax, or phrenic nerve crush) didn't start until a few decades later.

Streptomycin wasn't given to patients until 1945.

The third ever recipient (and second ever survivor) was Robert Dole who went on to become a US Senator.

[Mffi466]

My Grandfather was gassed in WW1 and died at a young age of 30 10 years later.  Death certificate says tuberculosis. My grandmother fought to get him a headstone from the VA and won but didn't get any other help. 

[Terry_Reeves]

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1164/rccm.201501-0135OE
 

TR

[stiletto_33853]

From WO32/5180, German Gas

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

On 14/05/2015 at 18:30, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

"Common Sense" dictates that other respiratory diseases would also be caused or worsened, but the evidence for the gases predisposing to a higher incidence of TB is lacking.

I'm glad that the author of the paper referred to by Terry Reeves was able to find hard data to confirm my understanding of the matter, and found old data that had already dispelled the widespread belief that gas caused TB.

Thanks for finding it Terry.

[Matlock1418]

For what it is worth, since it's not discussing gassing, in the UK the Ministry of Pensions took this approach, c. 1917/18 onwards for the award of disability pensions for Phthisis/Pulmonary TB

Image thanks to GWF /  @ss002d6252 

[From the MoP Annual Report to 31-3-18, p16 ... this abstract omits the more detailed continuing paragraph on the Lunacy mentioned in the title of this section]

Quite helpful for a man really in that it took a presumptive approach for TB, unless there was evidence to the contrary.

A widow would not get a dependant's pension on her husband's death if she had married him after the identification of the disability/disease or his medical discharge.

M

Edited 14 March by Matlock1418
add

[stevenbecker]

I ahave a number of such men who suffered an gas attack and were disched with TB

HECKENBERG    Harry Herbert    1022    Pte    02 LHR    6R to rear Dtls 7-15 tos A Sqn 10-15 evac to (21 BGH) hosp Alexandria (measles) 11-15 (G) rtn 12-15 att WFF 1-16 to hosp (VD) 2-16 to 1 LHTR 5-16 to AATD UK 6-16 to 4 ADBD Etaples 9-16 to Gnr 56Bty/25 FAB 10-16 to 55Bty/14 FAB 1-17 WIA 2-3-17 broken finger accident in camp at Behencourt near Albert att AIF depot (1 com) UK 5-17 rtn 11-17 WIA 24-4-18 gas reported 6 killed and 40 wounded and 9 gassed when shelled around Bonnay near Villers Bretonneux rtn 6-18 to hosp (TB) 12-18 F&B
 

CARLYON    Paul Raymond    1232    Pte    10 LHR    9R tos 1-16 to 3 LHTR 3-16 to Gnr 1 sect/4 DAC 4-16 to 39Bty/10 FAB 7-17 to Bdr (from anderson) 9-17 WIA 12-4-18 gas near Corbie F&B RTA MU TB disch 25-12-18 later WWII
 

Just to name a few

[AOK4]

10 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1164/rccm.201501-0135OE
 

TR

Very interesting!

 

[Robert Dunlop]

55 minutes ago, stevenbecker said:

I have a number of such men who suffered an gas attack and were [discharged] with TB

There is a well-known adage in medicine: "Association is not the same as causation". This does not invalidate what you posted as you did not claim any causal link. I make the point for us as readers.

Thank you for posting the examples.

Robert

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

For what it is worth, since it's not discussing gassing, in the UK the Ministry of Pensions took this approach, c. 1917/18 onwards for the award of disability pensions for Phthisis/Pulmonary TB

Image thanks to GWF /  @ss002d6252 

[From the MoP Annual Report to 31-3-18, p16 ... this abstract omits the more detailed continuing paragraph on the Lunacy mentioned in the title of this section]

Quite helpful for a man really in that it took a presumptive approach for TB, unless there was evidence to the contrary.

Thanks for reminding us of that M.

Yet CWGC take a view which is virtually the opposite for commemoration purposes. The link between death and cause of discharge has to be proven, despite the fact that we all know that  most servicemen's records were destroyed in 1940.