JMB1943 Posted 5 May , 2015 Share Posted 5 May , 2015 These are photos of a P.'07 Bayonet, made by Sanderson in July, 1915. The stampings on both ricassos appear to be highlighted in a yellow-gold colour. The same colouring can also be seen as (1) a thin band (ca. 1 mm) at the junction of the pommel and the top of the tang on the opposite side of the muzzle-lug ring, (2) a small spot on each side of the tang where the pommel meets the grips (same side as muzzle-lug ring), (3) a very thin line where the ricasso meets the cross-guard and (4) a very small spot on the blade, about 50 mm from the cross-guard. I cannot get sharp photos of these areas. I have attributed this colouration to the presence of excess brass, and wonder if this is commonly seen. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 5 May , 2015 Share Posted 5 May , 2015 These are photos of a P.'07 Bayonet, made by Sanderson in July, 1915. The stampings on both ricassos appear to be highlighted in a yellow-gold colour. The same colouring can also be seen as (1) a thin band (ca. 1 mm) at the junction of the pommel and the top of the tang on the opposite side of the muzzle-lug ring, (2) a small spot on each side of the tang where the pommel meets the grips (same side as muzzle-lug ring), (3) a very thin line where the ricasso meets the cross-guard and (4) a very small spot on the blade, about 50 mm from the cross-guard. I cannot get sharp photos of these areas. I have attributed this colouration to the presence of excess brass, and wonder if this is commonly seen. Regards, JMB JMB, As you say, this change in colour to either due to a chemical reaction or alternatively, someone deliberately highlighting the blades stampings. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 IIRC, signs of brazing around the crossguard and where the tang is slotted into the pommel are not that uncommon on P.1907's - I'll check mine when I get home. I think in some cases pommels were heat-shrunk to fit but I really don't know! Happy to be corrected on both counts! However, those bits of what seems to be brazing residue in the inspection marks is a bit odd... Unless it is somebody trying to highlight these at a later date, then perhaps this is one of those in which the crossguard has been re-brazed into place - in the field? - and what you have are spillage residue? Perhaps Seph will have an answer? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 You can sometimes get the same effect if cleaning steel using a brass wire brush with a dremel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Its simply the result of a sloppy brazing job by someone being over generous with the solder. We all make mistakes from time to time, but if this was during the initial production process, I'm positive it would not have made it through final inspection. I would surmise that this item is the result of work carried out during a refurbishment at some time. Brass brazing is not uncommon, and seen frequently on bayonets of the period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 How about the remnants of gold paint.? It can be surprising where a lot of old military surplus equipment ends up. Stage productions, school plays, marching bands ... the list is endless. I have seen quite a few bayonets that have been painted up for such reasons. They can make very cheap buying, and you take the risk of not being able to get them cleaned, but usually with a little effort they can be properly restored. If you look closely at this example you will see the gold colour also on the timber of the grips where it meets the crossguard. So I doubt brazing would adhere to the timber in this case. A little nail polish remover will soon establish whether it is paint or not. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 6 May , 2015 Share Posted 6 May , 2015 Of course the real line of brazing can be seen just below the Sanderson marking, where ricasso meets crossguard. This is where the brazing should be and is perfectly normal. Note the difference in the colouration - it is more a silver/yellow colour than the darker gold. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 May , 2015 Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Its simply the result of a sloppy brazing job by someone being over generous with the solder. We all make mistakes from time to time, but if this was during the initial production process, I'm positive it would not have made it through final inspection. I would surmise that this item is the result of work carried out during a refurbishment at some time. Brass brazing is not uncommon, and seen frequently on bayonets of the period. Agree - and note the '24 refurbishment mark How about the remnants of gold paint.? ... If you look closely at this example you will see the gold colour also on the timber of the grips where it meets the crossguard. So I doubt brazing would adhere to the timber in this case. A little nail polish remover will soon establish whether it is paint or not. All is possible, but I'd go with the brazing - and the mark where the grip meets the crossguard has more of a darker and almost 'rust' colour... So, over to you JMB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-maj Posted 7 May , 2015 Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Gold paint..... on the handle...... where? pics please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 7 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2015 Of course the real line of brazing can be seen just below the Sanderson marking, where ricasso meets crossguard. This is where the brazing should be and is perfectly normal. Note the difference in the colouration - it is more a silver/yellow colour than the darker gold. Cheers, S>S S>S----the issue of relative coloration can be somewhat misleading. Reading your comment & looking at the photo, I would agree; however, looking at the real thing under a bright light, the relative coloration appears to change depending on the angle of view.......not saying that you are wrong, but just making the comment. For my money, tricks of the light are one of the most common phenomena of the physical world. Gold paint..... on the handle...... where? pics please. Sgt-Maj.---please see OP...there is no gold paint on handle; I'm trying to describe the areas on the pommel, but unable at present to get sharp shots of the areas described Agree - and note the '24 refurbishment mark All is possible, but I'd go with the brazing - and the mark where the grip meets the crossguard has more of a darker and almost 'rust' colour... So, over to you JMB! Trajan---When I first saw photos on-line, my reaction was that the ricassos had been highlighted deliberately for contrast. Inspection after cleaning then found the brass-colored areas detailed in my first post. Putting 2&2 together, I then guessed that ALL of the yellow-gold coloration was perhaps due to sloppy brazeing technique and that the excess brass in the stampings could not be removed, although it could be readily removed from the flat surfaces of the ricassos (2+2 = 5 ?). You are right about the "almost rust-color" at the grip/cross-guard, and I think there is a little rust on the cross-guard there. Overall, I think that there are two concurrent events, one is that the stampings have been deliberately high-lighted (as per S>S) and that there are also a few spots of excess brass in the pommel area. Having only two other '07's to compare to this one, I'm not really in a position to know what is "normal" brazeing, and what is not. Thanks to all for your interest, and I'll have another try to get the pommel area in focus. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 17 July , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 July , 2015 As part of a search for pre-1916 P1907 bayonets, I have been scanning various forums and auction sites. A second P'07 bayonet (JAC 3 '16) with gold coloration in some stampings on each ricasso has been encountered. This example has no re-issue dates, and does not have a clearance hole; see photos. This is posted only for the record to show that they are out there, at probably less than 1%. Regards, JMB Brass P'07 bayo.docx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 17 July , 2015 Share Posted 17 July , 2015 ... A second P'07 bayonet (JAC 3 '16) with gold coloration in some stampings on each ricasso has been encountered. This example has no re-issue dates, and does not have a clearance hole; see photos. Well done! And thanks for adding to the public record! Not to judge others by my own standards, but as one who somehow always manages to get glue on my fingers when fixing two things together, well, a bit of slapdash brazing and a quick wipe with a handy rag smearing it into the stamps, would not surprise me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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