Orange order soldiers

[m@rp]

Hi,

Is there somebody to help me in my request?

This is what I would like to know: Do the orange order soldiers of the 36th ulster division whom fought on the Somme battlefield the 1st of July 1916 wore the orange scarf accross her upper body?

Here this is a pic I found on the web (to illustrate my request) Is this true or false

Thanks for your help
Pascal
Belgium

[Guest]

It looks like maybe a couple did Click Not sure how reliable these sources are though.

Mike

[corisande]

This is a much debated question that has not been proven or dis-proven. At heart, the question is political

Not sure how reliable these sources are though.

The source is Loyal Orange Lodge 842, who may just have a vested interest in the question.

Apart from the politics. as I saw someone remark in one of the many spats that have gone on over this question of whether or not they went into battle wearing Orange sashes "You would have to have been plain stupid to draw the attention of German machine gunners to you as a ranging point by wearing a bright orange coloured sash as you advanced "

[kenf48]

It is mentioned in Middlebrook's 'First Day on the Somme' "The Ulstermen awaited the attack in a state of emotional and religious fervour. Many were members of the Orange Order and some had sent for the orange sashes of their order and wore these over their bulky equipment. Hymns we're sung and prayers were said. The Ulstermen were ready for battle though at least one had succumbed to an old Irish failing..."

Gary Sheffield notes about the 36th (Ulster) Division "They were certainly unusual formations. The soldiers were more than normally pious and many were united by the membership of the Orange lodges. According to the old style calendar 1 July was the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne and a highly significant date in the Protestant Irish lore. Some men reputedly went into action wearing their orange sashes and shouting 'No Surrender'. 'The Somme'

Neither of these sources had a political axe to grind and while the politics cannot be overlooked as noted above there is no definitive proof although it's a strong and persistent myth.

Malcolm Brown relies on the diary of Sgt McKay RAMC (att. 36th Division) who makes no mention of the wearing of sashes in what was a viciously fought but initially successful attack.

Middlebrook relied on eye witness accounts and the story of the drunken soldier is attributed to L/Cpl Henderson Belfast Young Citizens, but not the wearing of sashes. Sheffield also qualifies the assertion.

Noting the comment above about providing a target perhaps given the undoubted religious adherence maybe some wore their sash as a talisman. There were literally thousands of men in the action so who is to say either way?

I think the original picture is mythologised in that not every soldier wore their sash but I for one would not wish to enter into the political debate.

Ken

[Guest]

Dundee Evening Telegraph - Monday 17 July 1916 British Newspaper Archive

How Ulster Division Went Into Action

" Rifleman Taylor, of West Belfast, in a letter to his wife, tells how the Ulster Division went into action. Captain Gaffiken waving an Orange handkerchief, shouted, " C'mon boys. This is the 1st of July. Let the enemy have it. " A private wrote that they went into action at 7 am and took five lines of trenches and about 1300 prisoners. " There were some of our fellows who had Orange lillies in their breasts, and one sergeant of the Inniskillings went over with his Orange sash on him. We had only one officer left out of our battalion. One of our officers pulled a Union Jack out of his pocket and waved it, and we all dashed after him, and then he was knocked down. "

Mike

[KGB]

I heard that they did (some not all), as to whether it is true or not...

[Guest]

The same story appears almost word for words as in the newspaper report in The Irish on the Somme page 36

Mike

[m@rp]

Many thanks for your help

I found what I was looking for

many thanks again

Pascal

Belgium

[rolt968]

I was trying to remember if the story is introduced in Observe the Sons of Ulster Marching Towards the Somme. I thought not, but this picture suggest that I was wrong:

http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2009/jun/24/theatre-review-hampstead-ulster-somme

Incidentally aren't the "collars" shown in the picture more likely than the "order" style sashes shown in the original post?

RM

[JACOBS LADDER]

HI PASCAL, ORANGE SASHES WERE NOT WORN. ON THE 1ST DAY OF THE BATTLE OF ALBERT.

[Guest]

Not doubting you. What makes you be so certain?

Mike

[kenf48]

If you shout loud enough it must be right

Ken

[Guest]

If you shout loud enough it must be right

Ken

We had better give Jacobs Ladder the benefit of the doubt. He may have proof.

Mike

[JACOBS LADDER]

REFERENCE ORANGE SASHES. MY TWO GRANDFATHERS WERE 36TH (ULSTER ) DIVISION AND DISMISSED THIS MYTH ALSO VETERANS WHO WERE ASKED THE QUESTION ALSO. DISMISSED IT. VETERANS SPOKE TO WILLIAM ERVINE WHO WAS MANAGER OF THE SOMME ASSOCIATION. AND RELAYED THE SAME CONCLUSION THAT SASHES WERE THE LAST THING ON THEIR MIND. THE 36TH WAS DISCIPLINED THE O/C WOULD HAVE CHECKED SOLDIERS DOWN THE LINE ETC. AND HE WOULD HAVE NOTICED ORANGE SIDE SASHES. SASHES WOULD HAVE BEEN A OBSTACLE GOING OVER THE TOP ALONG WITH THEIR KIT AND RIFLE. AND PROCEEDING OVER BARBWIRE. ALSO THE BRIGHT COLOUR WOULD HAVE ALERTED THE GERMAN SPOTTERS TO SEND A GRID REFERENCE FOR A ARTILLERY HIT, AND SNIPERS. THE GERMANS WERE A PROFESSIONAL ARMY. I HAVE FOLLOWED THE ( ULSTER DIVISION) MOST OF MY LIFE AND ALSO VISIT THE BATTLEFIELDS TWICE A YEAR. THEIR IS NO (ULSTER) DIV. WAR DIARIES STATE ANYTHING ABOUT SASHES ON THE FIRST OF JULY. AND ALSO A MYTH ABOUT ORANGE LILLYS THE DONT GROW ON THE SOMME. ASK YOURSELF IF YOU HAVE A MILITARY BACKGROUND WOULD YOU WERE A SASH GOING INTO BATTLE?

[Steven Broomfield]

Jacob's ladder: it's easier for others to read if you don't put everything in capitals.

Regarding wearing orange sashes, I'd agree it might not make sense to wear an orange sash when going into battle, but as others have posted, there was a religious fervour to some of the troops involved. That said, I'd be somewhat doubtful: Middlebrook however only says "some". It could simply be a question of what "some" looks like. One or two? Fifty? A hundred? Two hundred? I reckon we'll never know.

[Anneca]

A quote from The Road to the Somme by Philip Orr:

"Saturday 1st July: Some men had picked wild flowers and placed them in their tunics....yellow charlock, blue cornflowers, and crimson poppies. Some had even acquired orange lilies, the symbolic flowers of the Battle of the Boyne celebration. A few men had managed to stow away their Orange sashes and now they placed them around their shoulders. Some gained solace in a sense of corporate identity, and extemporised an Orange or Masonic lodge meeting in the last minutes."

Jacob's Ladder, I don't see a problem with any kind of lily growing in the Somme area and fail to recognise your point that this is a myth. I have read several accounts of orange sashes being taken to the Western Front but reckon the men wearing these to go over the top would have been foolhardy and stupid to give German machine gunners an easy target. I reckon they would have been asked to remove them or disciplined if they refused. Steven is quite correct that it is easier for others to read a post if is not in capitals.

Anne

[Guest]

Like many Great War stories, this has understandably large amounts of hero-romantic appeal and has been recycled a few times over the decades. Just wait for 1st July 2016. The BBC will be all over this like a Dan Snow storm. To my knowledge there has been minimal robust analysis, so the story continues to trundle on, occasionally nudged by respected authors who, rather than provide evidence, simply repeat the story; their status thereby adding some credence to the story by way of association. "Author X says it, so it must be true". I note none of the references can actually quote a source or refer to a first hand account.

It is rather like the football at Christmas, lots of second and third hand accounts, particularly in the media, but nothing in the diaries or contemporary histories, and very little by way of primary material. The reader who wants to believe it focuses on the flimsy supporting evidence and discards counter-evidence - another classic case of 'confirmation bias'. It is quite possible (and in my view probable) that at least one man within a Division of 12,000 infantrymen was fired-up enough to wear his sash (the photos support the idea that they were at least taken to the front), I doubt that hundreds did so, otherwise I think we would have a lot more tangible evidence. It is the way of these things. One tiny anecdote gets picked up by the media and suddenly gets extrapolated across a much larger event, and distorted and compounded. If one man kicks a football over the top, it doesn't necessarily means the division played soccer in front of the Germans.

I would treat anything written by Orr with a great deal of caution. His work on the Irish at Gallipoli has more than a few errors. I note he provides no hard reference point.

This is rather like the Christmas Football, the Gallipoli female snipers or crucified Canadians or Germans chained to their machine-guns; highly charged emotional images that make good copy but are conveniently diifficult to prove or disprove. As with may Great War stories the 'believers' ask the 'non-believers' to prove something didn't happen rather than prove it happened. A curious feature that is common in the mythstory of the Great War. MG

[JACOBS LADDER]

hi anne, my point regarding orange lillys .( lilium bulbiferum) they dont grow on the somme.

[Scalyback]

A moot question. Would they hold lodge meetings before going over the top? A quiet ritual that would be comfortable to them? They may not wear it over the top but carry it.

[corisande]

Quote

This is rather like the Christmas Football, the Gallipoli female snipers or crucified Canadians or Germans chained to their machine-guns; highly charged emotional images that make good copy but are conveniently idifficult to prove or disprove. As with may Great War stories the 'believers' ask the 'non-believers' to prove something didn't happen rather than prove it happened. A curious feature that is common in the mythstory of the Great War. MG

A very well reasoned post ...and us Irish are more prone than most to be "believers" or "non-believers" depending on our point of view.

I have struggled to present information on the War of Independence in Ireland as "everyone knows" what "really happened" and the stories trundle on, like this one

The Orange sash myth will die down in this thread, but in a few months someone else will raise it again, just like the other myths mentioned.

[Anneca]

hi anne, my point regarding orange lillys .( lilium bulbiferum) they dont grow on the somme.

I am surprised there have been no posts regarding lilies growing in France. A Regiment raised in Belfast in June 1701 by Arthur Chichester, 3^rd Earl of Donegall indicates there were lilies in France. The Earl raised his Regiment of Foot, which became known the Old Belfast Regiment, at his own expense in return for which King William III gave permission for the officers and soldiers to wear orange facings on their uniforms as a special mark of his favour. It then became the 35^th Regiment of Foot (The Prince of Orange’s Own Regiment). This Regiment took its colours from the French lilies of gold, and from this their later nickname “The Orange Lilies”.

Unfortunately the Regiment was practically wiped out at the Battle of Almanza in 1707 where they lost their Regimental Colours, the survivors returning to Ireland and the Regiment reconstituted. They fought in many battles after this changing their title in 1782 to the 35^th (The Dorsetshire) Regiment of Foot, in 1805 the 35^th (Sussex) Regiment of Foot, in 1881 united with the 107^th Regiment of Foot to form the Royal Sussex Regiment. During the Great War at 1^st Battle of Ypres the 2^nd Bn. (Royal Sussex Regiment) was given its second unofficial title “The Iron Regiment” as an unsolicited testimonial by German prisoners captured in November 1914 but the Regiment lost around 6,800 officers and men.

In 1966 they were amalgamated with The Queen’s Royal Surrey Regiment, The Queen’s Own Buffs, The Royal Kent Regiment and The Middlesex Regiment and became 3^rd Bn. The Queen’s Regiment. In 1992 they amalgamated with The Royal Hampshire Regiment to become The Princess of Wales’ Royal Regiment.

In my opinion the fact that this Regiment originally took their colours from the French Lilies of Gold and their first unofficial title of “The Orange Lilies” dispels the myth that there were no gold/orange lilies in France.

Anne

[KGB]

At the junction of Royal Ave (near what is now Primark) is a plaque to where they were raised (as the R. Sussex).

[Anneca]

Very interesting KGB, I'm rarely in Belfast but next time will have a look for the plaque.

Anne

[David Filsell]

Hard to considers the sash proven. George Smiley ( Moscow rules) would have said that two proofs are needed. I think I would require rather more in this case. Dan the Snowman won't help, he's off playing trains in India. Is there no end to this man's scholarship or hunkiness?

[kenf48]

I don't know if sashes were worn in battle, but it would be surprising if such an essential part of their identity did not accompany them overseas in their kit.

There is evidence of meetings and parades being held at Seaford when the Division was training and as shown on this site

http://www.36ulsterdivisionlol977.co.uk

Photographs of men in uniform wearing their sashes, by no means proof they were worn in battle but evidence they were worn outside Ulster and in France, in fact it appears they were given authority to do so. As suggested by the site they were probably carried in their backpacks.

Ken