Paybooks (British)

[Khaki]

If a soldier on active service came into money whilst serving in the field (F&F) could he deposit such money into his pay book the same as a bank book

or was the pay book only for withdrawals of service pay?

thanks

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

The Soldiers Pay Book (AB64) was introduced at the beginning of WW1 on mobilisation (before that the equivalent was called 'small book' and less utilitarian) and acted as an ID document / Passport and even last will and testament declaration, and was to be carried in the top right hand breast pocket and produced on demand from any officer or NCO.

It contained all ingoings and outgoings, including pay, deductions (known as stoppages) and 'family allotments' (for married men). Any money received as a gift had to be in, or converted to, postal order format (a kind of cheque), which could be done at a Pay Office or Field Post Office.

The AB64 was very utilitarian and changed little during both world wars. I was among the last intakes to receive one in the early 1970s, at which point monthly salaries (instead of daily rates paid weekly) and bank accounts were introduced as a replacement. After that we no longer had to 'salute for our pay' in front of blanket covered tables with an officer (paying) and SNCO (witnessing) present at weekly 'pay parades'. It was the end of an era.

[Terry_Reeves]

The AB 64 came into being in 1905. There was some discussion about the quality of it when samples were sent to the Colonels i/c records offices. The following is from WO32/8864 - Criticisms of quality of Soldiers Pay Book - Army Book 64 (1906). A memo dated 1905 from the file shows how far advanced the process was:

"Dear Williamson

Will you kindly let us have the press copy of Army Book 64. 100,000 ordered 16.3.05 on demand no 3780 and 250,000 additional ordered on 20.7.05 on demand no 4518."

The "press copy" refers to the copy to be lodged with the War Office Registry.

TR

[Khaki]

Any money received as a gift had to be in, or converted to, postal order format (a kind of cheque), which could be done at a Pay Office or Field Post Office.

Thanks, does that mean that the postal order could not be credited to a pay book, I am presuming that it had to be mailed to the UK (family or bank account)?

khaki

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks, does that mean that the postal order could not be credited to a pay book, I am presuming that it had to be mailed to the UK (family or bank account)?

khaki

No, the PO had to be sent to the soldier through the excellent postal service who then took it to his Pay Office or FPO, where it's value was added to his account.

There were also excellent Regimental Pay Offices (RPOs) in the UK at many of the big garrisons, e.g. York, where each man's main account was held, but I doubt that monies could be submitted there. These latter were only finally closed (although they had been much reduced) after the Berlin Wall came down!

[Khaki]

Thanks for the information, I was thinking mainly of a situation where a soldier 'won' significantly at, let's say crown & anchor, and had a pocket full of money, would he likely have kept the money on his person and risk it or deposit it through his pay book and risk his gambling being discovered or suspected?

khaki

[Terry_Reeves]

Frogsmile

Do you have reference for that please?

TR

[FROGSMILE]

The AB 64 came into being in 1905. There was some discussion about the quality of it when samples were sent to the Colonels i/c records offices. The following is from WO32/8864 - Criticisms of quality of Soldiers Pay Book - Army Book 64 (1906). A memo dated 1905 from the file shows how far advanced the process was:

"Dear Williamson

Will you kindly let us have the press copy of Army Book 64. 100,000 ordered 16.3.05 on demand no 3780 and 250,000 additional ordered on 20.7.05 on demand no 4518."

The "press copy" refers to the copy to be lodged with the War Office Registry.

TR

That's interesting Terry as it seems some units still had the 'Small Book' until they were mobilised at which point they exchanged them for an AB64. Perhaps because it had the caveat and secondary title on the front of - For Active Service.

[Terry_Reeves]

Frogsmile

I am quite sure they did, it was originally only intended for active service. The numbers ordered are interesting as it is an indication - if any were needed, of the size of the army. I have photographs of the specimen copy mentioned above, but there is nothing in the instructions to the soldier nor the entries which are to be recorded, which authorise credits such as postal orders. The instructions are quite specific but perhaps they were modified before the outbreak of war. It is correct that POs could be cashed at APOs etc, but I have seen nothing that lets the soldier admit it to his pay account.

TR

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile

Do you have reference for that please?

TR

No I am sorry Terry, just from accounts and biographies that I have been reading for 40 years, at first I tried to keep all my references including an extensive collection of official pamphlets and regulations but because I was serving myself and moving every couple of years it counted against my baggage allowance and eventually my wife had a sense of humour failure. I will entirely understand if you choose to disregard what I have said and will not take offence. I am always happy to be corrected if I have said something wrong, and you are able to refererence a fact, as that is how we learn. I was also based at York for a while and had access to the APOs, Record Offices and Garrison libraries, where I picked up loads of junk that I no longer have. Now settled I am building up a decent library though. There is a decent book on the history of the RAPC and pay officers that can be got for pennies which contains a lot of this detail.

P.S. I also won't post unless I think I know the answer. I am not here to just make things up for the hell of it.

[Terry_Reeves]

No worries - I still have my last AB 64 before bank accounts became all the fashion, nothing very much had changed as you say.

TR

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the information, I was thinking mainly of a situation where a soldier 'won' significantly at, let's say crown & anchor, and had a pocket full of money, would he likely have kept the money on his person and risk it or deposit it through his pay book and risk his gambling being discovered or suspected?

khaki

Gambling was strictly illegal, especially so between rank bands. Men still did it of course (especially on troopships) and a certain degree of tolerance or 'blind eye' was afforded, but a man would have been chancing his luck to openly try and deposit cash (ill-gotten gains) in that way. I read that most men gambling before going into action would either play until they lost it all, or pass it on to a trusted friend who was not going into action (especially when battalion reconstruction cadres were introduced) and entrust him to send the money home to his family.

[FROGSMILE]

No worries - I still have my last AB 64 before bank accounts became all the fashion, nothing very much had changed as you say.

TR

Ah.......but have you got your F MED 8 too :-)

[themonsstar]

I have a copy of both parts of my F MED 8

[Terry_Reeves]

You have me there sir...

TR

[mark holden]

I remember paying Junior Leaders at pay parade on a blanket covered table in 1985/6. If I remember it was a portion of their weekly pay for sundries etc.

regards

Mark

The Soldiers Pay Book (AB64) was introduced at the beginning of WW1 on mobilisation (before that the equivalent was called 'small book' and less utilitarian) and acted as an ID document / Passport and even last will and testament declaration, and was to be carried in the top right hand breast pocket and produced on demand from any officer or NCO.
It contained all ingoings and outgoings, including pay, deductions (known as stoppages) and 'family allotments' (for married men). Any money received as a gift had to be in, or converted to, postal order format (a kind of cheque), which could be done at a Pay Office or Field Post Office.
The AB64 was very utilitarian and changed little during both world wars. I was among the last intakes to receive one in the early 1970s, at which point monthly salaries (instead of daily rates paid weekly) and bank accounts were introduced as a replacement. After that we no longer had to 'salute for our pay' in front of blanket covered tables with an officer and SNCO present at weekly 'pay parades'. It was the end of an era.

[Scalyback]

I had a pay parade in 1997! This was Gibraltar and a TA exercise but end of week one we had a week's pay presented to us with a chitty. As Gibraltar is sterling and the banks accepted our cash cards, it was a most odd thing. Placed my cash in the local Natwest there and carried on.

Back to great war. Would the rank and file of soldiers have access and need for a bank account?

[FROGSMILE]

No need for a bank account, at that time just officers had such a thing. It was a class thing.

Each other rank had an account recorded in the RPO and a sub-account run within his unit via an 'acquittance roll'. On regular periodical checks the acquittance roll had to 'balance' with the main account at the RPO. I read all this in a book on the history of the RAPC.

[FROGSMILE]

I remember paying Junior Leaders at pay parade on a blanket covered table in 1985/6. If I remember it was a portion of their weekly pay for sundries etc.

regards

Mark

Yes there are or were still the odd occasions, I have had similar experiences. My point really was that something that had been a part of every soldier's weekly routine for generations was gone as a normal part of his life.

[Scalyback]

Officer accounts and agents are a subject in itself.

I understand the thinking of the time that the army was the "carer" of the OR and pay amounted to pocket money. How did OR plan for the future? I assume holding of a post office saving book was allowed. How did the warrant officer class function financial wise?

Will seek a copy of the RAPC out, sounds a riveting read. I enjoy "how" the army works. Sad person

[FROGSMILE]

Officer accounts and agents are a subject in itself.

I understand the thinking of the time that the army was the "carer" of the OR and pay amounted to pocket money. How did OR plan for the future? I assume holding of a post office saving book was allowed. How did the warrant officer class function financial wise?

Will seek a copy of the RAPC out, sounds a riveting read. I enjoy "how" the army works. Sad person

Yes, as you say the Army Agent has a long history. I still have my bank account with one although sadly it is now just a branch of Lloyds.

You have it spot on about the attitude to ORs. The concept was one of bed and board and some pocket cash for so called 'necessaries'. It took generations for the pay to improve and I think from memory the soldier of WW1 was relatively (to his forebears) better off with a shilling a day. Savings books were allowed once the soldier was paid enough to have realistic expectations of some disposable income. A big change came around the time of the 2nd Boer war when recruiting problems made politicians realise that basic pay was inadequate. Changes to marital allowance occurred around the same time.

The war literally changed everything because whereas before the war some degree of control could be exerted over the number of married men and thus allowances paid out. Volunteers who were married and later married conscripts, all got an allowance.

It was a time of great change for warrant officers, not least a massive increase in numbers when the WO2 was introduced in 1915. They were still ORs and thus on the acquittance roll, they just had better terms and conditions, as you would expect.

The book on RAPC is not a bad read and it was interesting to see how long the War Office resisted first separate unit paymasters and then later sub-unit pay sergeants. Before that Colour Sergeants and cavalry and artillery sub- unit level QMS had the task added to all their other duties. The 1914 changes were mainly forcing the infantry to do what those two other combat arms had been doing for decades.

[Scalyback]

As always Frogsmile informative. I have a few questions that will be more the scope of Victorian war forum. I will sign up there for more pre war questioning.

With the influx of men not of the traditional OR stamp, surely tested the pay corps. As you say gone are the days of "simple" squaddies wanting beer baccy and women and men with complex finances being ordinary ranks.

A small poser. Officer cashiered and placed straightaway under conscription(I'm aware of one) how would his pay book settle against his agents account?

[FROGSMILE]

As always Frogsmile informative. I have a few questions that will be more the scope of Victorian war forum. I will sign up there for more pre war questioning.

With the influx of men not of the traditional OR stamp, surely tested the pay corps. As you say gone are the days of "simple" squaddies wanting beer baccy and women and men with complex finances being ordinary ranks.

A small poser. Officer cashiered and placed straightaway under conscription(I'm aware of one) how would his pay book settle against his agents account?

The Pay Corps was massively tested and really came of age in WW1. They rose to the occasion in four main ways. 1. Regional offices. 2. Recruiting old boy retirees to suitable posts. 3. Conscription of older men with financial experience. 4. Massive and intelligent use of large numbers of highly capable women.

I would really need to know more about the cashiered officer. Was he a ranker or direct commission?

[Scalyback]

Have to check the books, currently installed in a cosy pub in West Wales. Vague facts are court marshalled, cashied and stripped of rank. Next day enlisted under conscription and sent to another unit to soldier on as a ranker. The military powers assuming he could perform as a rifleman!

[FROGSMILE]

Have to check the books, currently installed in a cosy pub in West Wales. Vague facts are court marshalled, cashied and stripped of rank. Next day enlisted under conscription and sent to another unit to soldier on as a ranker. The military powers assuming he could perform as a rifleman!

I will be interested to learn more.

There were two cases along similar lines in 1914 during the retreat from Mons involving two relatively elderly infantry battalion COs. Both prematurely tried to surrender their battalions and it was only the intervention of two cavalry officers who with a tin whistle and drum got the exhausted soldiers back on their feet and 'stumbled' them away.

Both COs were court martialed and cashiered. One disappeared into oblivion, but the other joined the French Foreign Legion as a private, fought and won awards for bravery until he was invalided by wounds. After the war he was specially reinstated by King George V and eventually retired as a full Colonel.

Is it one of these cases that you are thinking of?