trenchtrotter Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Well at last I got round to taking some images. A 1890 dated rifle, matched serial numbers to barrel, magazine floor plate, bolt (force matched I think?), and butt. The forestaock is not matched but the colour match and wear to the wood suggests to me that they have been together for a very long time. It was made at Chatellerault and has the correct Inspectors marks for the year 1890. There acceptance cartouche on the right side of the butt (stock) is just visable but unreadable. It was reworkedpost 1932 to accept Balle N ammunition indicating that post WW1 it remained in French Military service. It was proofed at Munich in July 1985 by its last owner to show it was up to range shooting still with 8mm ammunition. I have had to have it deactivated as up to January 2015 it was a live firer. The sling is period to 14 - 18. A lovely example in my opinion. Some minor armourers repairs to the wood. Enjoy and comments welcome. TT . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 A lovely rifle. I would love to own such a rifle. I certainly have a soft spot for these signature pieces of french service in ww1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Hi TT, Yes it looks very nice and original. My 1890 example matches except the bolt - BUT this is due to being reworked in the 30's I guess. Yours looks like the original butt for example. Mine too was reproofed in Germany. Interesting. Is that not a 1971 proof mark though - mine is 1976. Was the bore in poor condition? I hope so, or I might start crying!!! Mine can be viewed on GunBoards: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?386476-Lebel-1886-markings&highlight=lebel Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 A really nice helmet too! Have just got into these and now have 3. My latest presently on the Equipment forum. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 22 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Re the German proof marks. From my research 7 is month then letters = numbers eg A=0, B=1 etc. so I=8 and F=5. Hence 7/85. I think I have it right? Re the bore I don't know. It was available on a FAC and came from the Austrian owner who proofed it or bought it after proofing so it probably was? SORRY?? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Hi TT, Yes I see I misread the I for a one. Mine is the Ulm proof house that just used numbers for month and year. Has this rifle come in from Austria then? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 22 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2015 That was what I was told by the firearms dealer I bought it from. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 I'd been looking for ages when I heard of mine by word of mouth in mid Jan this year from a Lebel shooter. I looked at the rifle the day the dealer had collected it. They don't come on the market often - especially Live ones. They command a high price - they have recently come off ticket in France so that will drive prices too I guess. Paid £950 for mine. Did I miss yours or was it not advertised? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 22 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Was on Arundel Arms. Also late Dec / Jan. About one month later they had another live one. 1898. All matching but missing stacking rod. I too have been after one for a while but wanted the best I could. I am aware of four deacs on the market in the past two month all at £925 to £1050. Mine was the same price as yours. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Thanks for that TT, will keep an eye on what they have in - really getting into French stuff!!! 3 questions!!! 1) Looking carefully at your butt serial, is that number overstamped? I assume that in the 30's when the Balle N mods were made the rifles would have been thoroughly gone over. You can see on mine the result - new wood let into the butt and forestock to allow new numbers to be stamped to match the barrel, and the floorplate is overstamped. 2) What do you mean by force matched for the bolt? My bolt doesn't match - must have lost the original after the 30's, in WW2??? However the German proofs from 1976 all match so I'm cofident re shooting it when I can sort the ammo, I don't reload, so I still haven't had a chance to shoot it! 3) Please tell me that helmet wasn't in the bag of 10 you got from Stoneleigh!!! Super paint. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Excellent example TT. I have a couple of Lebels, one in virtual relic condition and one better (although I have only shot it once years ago) but in more worn condition than yours. They are not common in the US (Berthiers seem more common) but do not command very high prices usually (for example I paid about 25% of the prices you quote above about 5 years ago for the better example shown below) Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Very nice examples of a Lebel, I too have one, its in VG+ condition, the butt stock has been expertly covered in nice but worn Moroccan type leather carefully bound in place, I thought of removing it but with images of Beau Geste, Legion Etrangere Francais I though it wiser to leave it be. Sorry no wide angle camera available or I would give you an image. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Hi Chris, Yes prices do seem lower in the States. There has also been quite a rise over here in the last couple of years for good specimens. These classics aren't getting any commoner! And are you guys experiencing any WW1 anniversary surge in interest? I'm quite into bayonets too, and there doesn't seem to be the price difference as per firearms, with US prices being similar from what I can see. Would that be your impression too? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 22 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Re the butt stock serial number. It is not over stamped and is the original. By force matched I mean the original serial number ground offand re numbered to match the serial number on the barrel etc. for French guns the serial number on the barrel is the lead one. Re conversion to Balle N this only involved reaming / re throating the chamber and was done easily at a local level by regimental armoured etc so tools simply sent out and no major refurb required. Also as cartouche visible this indicates original butt as they stopped marking these when new butts added. Hope this helps TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 22 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Chris, five years ago I think a Lebel here would have been £500? TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Hi Chris, Yes prices do seem lower in the States. There has also been quite a rise over here in the last couple of years for good specimens. These classics aren't getting any commoner! And are you guys experiencing any WW1 anniversary surge in interest? I'm quite into bayonets too, and there doesn't seem to be the price difference as per firearms, with US prices being similar from what I can see. Would that be your impression too? Cheers, Tony I think that generally bayonet prices are lower in the US too - although there are significant variations. I would agree that the difference in bayonets is not as marked as with firearms (which you would perhaps expect given the legislative context for the latter). P1907 bayonets have gone up a bit recently it seems - used to be available for @ $35-50 a few years ago now $75.00 seems the norm for a decent one with scabbard. I was able to get a good price on a dozen purchased as a lot a few years ago - they were complete but well used and had inter-war refinish dates on and WWII scabbards but they were considerably cheaper than were available in the UK at the time. When I bought my first Lee Enfield in the mid 1990s they were priced between $50 and $100 for a standard one -- and deals could be had (I got my first, a 1917 Lithgow for $35.00 in a retail store) now the prices are around the $300.00 mark for a standard one and climb rapidly for anything interesting. There is a clear preference for US weapons: an M1917 will almost always fetch 50% more than a P14 in comparable condition (and a M1917 bayonet will nearly always fetch more than a p1907/P1913) M1903 rifles of all types go for ridiculous money - as do their bayonets, almost always $150-200 and up in any sort of condition. I can't say that I have noticed a huge jump in prices in WWI related material actually selling (although I don't frequent many shows - I do browse eBay -- probably too much) although I have noticed sellers asking silly prices for some things and often citing the centenary -- however these things don't sell so.... I think more things are coming onto the market now. I don't know if this is generational as one generation of collectors passes on or if it is folks trying to cash in on elevated prices I don't think this is really driven by increased WWI interest (the "anniversary" is still 2 years off here!) One thing that does seem to be appearing more are US uniforms which are still very cheap compared to European equivalents - in part because so many survive (Soldiers were issued a fresh "dishcharge" uniform and it is almost these - worn for one last homecoming parade and then packed away). The relative strength of the dollar and the relative weakness of the euro and to some extent sterling recently may have helped. Every time I come back to the UK to visit family prices surprise me but I think that is because I rather lack an accurate frame of reference. For a reasonable sampling of what is easily available browsing Gunbroker.com or similar will give you an idea of prices - show prices can vary wildly. I would caution - as with any auction site there are some wildly optimistic prices on there - but there are also bargains to be found (fortunately!) As with anything - real quality is going to cost -- which is why I don't really have any! As with anything condition and demand is all. I have tried to use this in collecting Enfields because Ishapore produced rifles attract very little interest and are dismissed as inferior. Which although inaccurate I am happy to take advantage of if it allows me to pick up examples at 50-60% of the price of British made equivalents (even ones that have clearly seen service in India!). Sorry for the partial hijack TT.... back to the lebels 500 sterling = $750.00 US +/- so I paid under half that for mine IIRC. but a quick browse suggests you would probably pay $6-800 for a good one now. Berthier 1892 or M1916 carbines routinely sell for $2-300 Long rifles for a bit more.... unless they are the Remington ones which are often in nearly unissued condition which sell for $800-1000. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 I agree with you Chris, and I would also add it also depends where and how in the USA one makes a purchase, for example I think advertised on line east coast prices somewhat higher,local gun shows higher than gun shops and rural areas a lot more affordable but less likely to have many examples. regards khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 23 April , 2015 Share Posted 23 April , 2015 Thanks Chris for the comprehensive post. I did actually contact a dealer in the US to see if I get a Lebel shipped to the UK before I got mine. It did seem possible, at a cost of around $300 due to all the rigmarole. It would still have been viable economically based on UK prices. It sold however. I have a small collection of Japanese bayonets and they seem quite collected in the US, less so here. Perhaps my impressions were skewed because of those. Maybe I need to send my Model 1917's back West! Lots here due to Home Guard usage. Momentarily forgot that 1914 wasn't as relevant in the US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TT, all of my rifle is as per your bolt, so mine has gone through a comprehensive rebuild programme in the 30's by the look of things. The bits would have come from other rifles, hence the need to renumber everything to the barrel - and the incedible joinery especially letting in that wood insert to renumber the butt. How about that lovely helmet??? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 23 April , 2015 Share Posted 23 April , 2015 I have had to have it deactivated as up to January 2015 it was a live firer.. What a pity. Although a deact may be more desirable in the UK its international value is now less. Before taking such steps, I would urge people to apply for a Firearm Certificate. "Part of a Collection" is a "good reason" to own a live firearm and if held without ammunition, it should not pose any real difficulty. Organisations such as the HBSA exist to help collectors. I have friend with a Lebel complete with a "Rosalie" that he shoots but getting ammunition is getting very difficult, leading me to believe that it is only a matter of time before 8mm Lebel is Home Office obsolete list . (Making all the live ones very much more valuable in the UK.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 23 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2015 I agree re the above but you would need the secure cabinet etc and not be able to display? The gun laws in the UK are ridiculous as shotguns and hand gun either from the continent illegally held or BB guns etc are those used in crime. I have yet to read of s bank robber with a Lebel. However let's not get distracted. As mentioned Lebels are off ticket in France now and a French friend told me they are now surfacing frequently. Will this see more on the market? However Berthiers because clip loaded but same ammo are still restricted. Bizarre! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now