Wearing of ww1 medals

[regimentalrogue]

This phrasing: "The replicas are Official and can be worn according to appropriate protocol" is nothing but a sales pitch.

This is the correct terminology: "They're collectible miniatures."

Full-size official medals are those issued by the Government to entitled recipients as described in the official documents for their promulgation. Miniatures, in any case, are not "officially issued" medals. Miniatures were acquired from third-party sellers, normally the regimental tailor, by medal recipients to wear (initially) on formal dress, either military Mess Dress for officers (and more recently Warrant Officers and Non-Commissioned Officers) and tuxedos. Later they began to be adopted by some for wear on civilian suits and blazers as a light-weight (and less risky for loss) alternative to wearing their full size groups, although this is not an approved form of wear in any Commonwealth country that I know of (and I stand to be corrected by anyone with the relevant official documents).

The souvenir collectible pin/medals (even if manufactured by the Mint and sold through the Post office) are not official sets of medals. Short of someone trying to use them as evidence of service and entitlement, there's no "protocol" for the wearing of a souvenir pin from the Post Office. "Can be worn according to the appropriate protocol"? What does that even mean? What's the "appropriate protocol" for souvenir medals from the Post Office?

If someone is going to get confused by a boy wearing a souvenir pin that looks like a Great War trio, then that person needs to take some time to educate themselves about medals in the first place. I rather doubt he plans to wear this souvenir pin to declare himself a returned serviceman seeking a job at McDonalds.

[michaeldr]

It seems to me that if you allow your actions to be judged by all and sundry,

then of course, out there in big wide world you will always be able to find people who will disagree with anything.

In an earlier post CGM very kindly provided a link to the Australian RSL page which gives their opinion [see http://www.rsl.org.au/Our-Services/Medals/The-Wearing-of-Medals-and-Decorations]

quote:

Family members may wear their forebears medals on the right breast which indicates that they are not their own. There is no limitation or formal policy on what occasions they should be worn. In essence, the wearing of forebear's medals on the right breast is a convention passed down over the years that is largely dictated by the occasion and (ideally) a measure of decorum fitting the event. They should not be worn lightly or where it would be inappropriate to do so

The RSL is the organisation in Australia which represents those who actually served,

and if I was you, then I would take their advice, and no other.

[McCrystalHarrison]

If someone is going to get confused by a boy wearing a souvenir pin that looks like a Great War trio, then that person needs to take some time to educate themselves about medals in the first place. I rather doubt he plans to wear this souvenir pin to declare himself a returned serviceman seeking a job at McDonalds.

it could happen!

The protocol issue is its still inappropriate to wear them on the left, or wear them if you're not a direct descendant. Thats the minimum that seems to be expected on Australian sites discussing the wearing of forbears medals (and still its hard to pin down whether is fine or a massive offense to wear them). And when getting either the miniature or full size medal sets mounted, there are right and wrong ways to do it. These adhere to the right way. So there is no insult happening in terms of the order of the medals, the ribbons attached, the die cast used to create them, etc. The query is,

1) is there insult a-happening to wear medals full stop, (as a great grandson)

2) and to wear replicas because the originals are gone.

[McCrystalHarrison]

michaeldr
Firstly the reason I asked on the web is to try to clarify the answer. Nope its not clarified it. Its not clear on the RSL site in terms of replica v original. The MOD in the UK don't clarify it either, but do say to obtain replica ww1 medals from high quality private mints. Which is a form of endorsement. But not the same as saying, descendants wearing replicas is AOK.

I was just trying to ensure my nephew wasn't criticised for something he was going to do with pride and respect.

And if you saw the hard time the mums group tried to give me, you'd understand why I happily clarified over here as I was being accused of essentially trying to trick you all into giving me the answer I wanted. Which was not the case at all.

[eairicbloodaxe]

However, surely there must be a societal distinction drawn between individuals wearing medals they could have been awarded themselves Vs old awards where all the recipients have passed. The right breast protocol would seem to cover that in cases where confusion might reign.

The picture frame idea seems safest of all, as you can also mount it on the wall when you return home to keep your commemoration alive.

The key point here is that by wearing replicas of medals no one alive is entitled to, and doing so on an official commemoration day, should not by reasonable people be construed as disrespectful. Wearing the real thing, however, might be to some people, particularly those who served, earned medals of their own and appreciate the significance and sacrifice that requires.

I have several sets of pairs and trios and while I love to look at them and remember the men behind the service numbers while I handle the medals, I would never, ever consider wearing them. I would not feel the same way about a replica, if the occasion was right. Going to a remembrance day service would be right, going to the pub wouldn't be...

Unless it was a fancy dress party? In which case replicas would be fine. But never the real thing.

Regards

Ian

Ps. So in short. Wear replicas. Carry a framed picture of great grandad in uniform. Remember with pride.

[McCrystalHarrison]

Thanks everyone for your time and effort. Its still as clear as mud to me, but I am going to talk to my sister about either framing the medals and the 2 photos I have of grandad in the army and navy during the war, or him wearing the medals and still framing the 2 photos.

[CGM]

michaeldr

Firstly the reason I asked on the web is to try to clarify the answer. Nope its not clarified it. Its not clear on the RSL site in terms of replica v original.

Contact the RSL directly !

Only then will you know for sure that the information you have is correct !

[Medaler]

The souvenir collectible pin/medals (even if manufactured by the Mint and sold through the Post office) are not official sets of medals. Short of someone trying to use them as evidence of service and entitlement, there's no "protocol" for the wearing of a souvenir pin from the Post Office. "Can be worn according to the appropriate protocol"? What does that even mean? What's the "appropriate protocol" for souvenir medals from the Post Office?

That is perhaps the crux of some of their argument, that they are not "original miniatures" - My own personal opinion is that this is unbelievably short sighted as the "original miniatures" were never themselves "official issues" in first place. They were not "issued" to the servicemen, but purchased privately from military tailors. So, in that sense, the "original miniatures" were not "real" either.

The Great Grandson is a direct descendant, so the "claim" to wear them is valid (so long as they are worn on the right).

Perhaps it should be pointed out that, in the depression era after the war, there were many recorded instances of servicemen attending parades with the pawn brokers tickets for their medals pinned to their chests instead of their medals. One wonders how mumsnet would have reacted to that.

The bigger issue of course is that a child may be being exposed to possible "fallout" by wearing them, which could perhaps turn ugly. I would sincerely hope that that would not be the case, but we live in a strange world. At the end of the day, you must judge the dangers of that for yourself.

When however it comes to pressure from mumsnet (or similar) to change my mind on the opinion that I gave earlier, I don't.

My warmest and most sincere regards,

Mike

[spof]

The bigger issue of course is that a child may be being exposed to possible "fallout" by wearing them, which could perhaps turn ugly. I would sincerely hope that that would not be the case, but we live in a strange world. At the end of the day, you must judge the dangers of that for yourself.

It has been about 5 or 6 years since I was in Australia for Anzac Day but my experience then was there was absolutely no trouble in that way at all. If anything, people are more likely to ask about his ancestor so he will probably have a chance to retell his gt grandfather's story.

Framing the photos is a good idea. If possible allow a little extra room below them so the miniatures can be put there after the 25th or even room for full sized replicas at some time in the future.

[KGB]

That is perhaps the crux of some of their argument, that they are not "original miniatures" - My own personal opinion is that this is unbelievably short sighted as the "original miniatures" were never themselves "official issues" in first place. They were not "issued" to the servicemen, but purchased privately from military tailors. So, in that sense, the "original miniatures" were not "real" either.

The Great Grandson is a direct descendant, so the "claim" to wear them is valid (so long as they are worn on the right).

Perhaps it should be pointed out that, in the depression era after the war, there were many recorded instances of servicemen attending parades with the pawn brokers tickets for their medals pinned to their chests instead of their medals. One wonders how mumsnet would have reacted to that.

The bigger issue of course is that a child may be being exposed to possible "fallout" by wearing them, which could perhaps turn ugly. I would sincerely hope that that would not be the case, but we live in a strange world. At the end of the day, you must judge the dangers of that for yourself.

When however it comes to pressure from mumsnet to change my mind on the opinion that I gave earlier, I don't.

My warmest and most sincere regards,

Mike

There is no such thing as an "indirect" descendant.

[Medaler]

It has been about 5 or 6 years since I was in Australia for Anzac Day but my experience then was there was absolutely no trouble in that way at all. If anything, people are more likely to ask about his ancestor so he will probably have a chance to retell his gt grandfather's story.

I am very pleased to hear that, but felt it a moral duty to point out the possibility, given the objections that have been raised on this other website.

There is no such thing as an "indirect" descendant.

Quite right KGB - but on the other hand, I have many relatives from whom I am not descended. I suppose that could possibly open another can of worms regarding which family members have a more valid "claim" to wear them, but I don't see that as pertinent to the OP.

In this instance the "claim" to wear them is a strong one, perhaps not so strong in other instances, but I could have phrased that initial comment a lot better.

[Tom Lang]

Hi Justsomeone from EB

<snip>

They're beautiful, and they were not cheap.

<snip>

For information on UK pricing (as a comparison) here's a link to one of several suppliers:

http://www.worcmedals.com/shop.php?sec=cat&cat=143&category=1st-world-war

I have no commercial interest to this company, though I am a very satisfied customer.

Kindest Regards,

Tom.

[KGB]

I am very pleased to hear that, but felt it a moral duty to point out the possibility, given the objections that have been raised on this other website.

Quite right KGB - but on the other hand, I have many relatives from whom I am not descended. I suppose that could possibly open another can of worms regarding which family members have a more valid "claim" to wear them, but I don't see that as pertinent to the OP.

In this instance the "claim" to wear them is a strong one, perhaps not so strong in other instances, but I could have phrased that initial comment a lot better.

I could not resist, it made it on to "The Independent" recently.

[Medaler]

KGB,

Why does Dick Emery suddenly spring to mind? :-)

Cheers,

Mike

[David Filsell]

Tell your stroppy ill informed mums the facts and let the lad honour his family and his nation by wearing the medals with pride - now and however long he is their custodian

[McCrystalHarrison]

Oh how I wish the discussion on the other site had not been locked (and possibly deleted - I can not find it) because as soon the reply in this discussion saying the medals were not replicas but commemorative, hit the web, they stroppy ill informed went in for the kill on me! I was called for most everything. Delusional, on drugs, rude, disrespectful, offensive, and more. All this because they took offense at me saying they can be

nasty and judgy and elitist. Nature of the beast of a forum of 100,000 women I guess

which was not only offensive. But sexist. If only the irony was apparent to them who decided to harass me. I got supportive messages...via inbox only.

Apparently I'd already been given the 'right' answer ("no they can not be worn - and my xyz is military"; which appeared mixed up amongst "yes they can be worn - and my xyz is military" answers) and was being indignant by asking here because I didn't like the answers I got there (because I should have known a military history site would be more favorable to my query? how? I did not know the answer but thought a clear answer may well come from here, one way or the other).

I tried to explain to no avail, that the Ministry Of Defense refers families of WW1 participants to quality retail Minting services because they do not reissue ww1 medals even if lost in a fire or theft. Therefore, war office replacements are not available, only replicas are. It fell on deaf ears. What makes these replicas not commemorative is they are copies of WO issued medals, not specially minted medals to commemorate a special event in a military group. What muddies the waters is they're miniatures. Which as someone said were only used for certain occasions - so does that make miniatures commemorative? It doesn't seem to matter because veterans apparently sometimes use the miniatures on these occasions anyway.

In any event, I love the idea of having my grandads photos framed and a place for the medals too. It actually solves the issue as there is no need to actually wear them if they're framed and nephew is holding frame. So thats what we will do.

Thank you everyone for your respectful, considered input. It has been a pleasure.

[McCrystalHarrison]

As a post script I have since discovered that the mint that produced the medals is the same one commissioned by the various legs of the Australian Defense Forces.

[Ian Riley]

This is hardly a 'considered' response ... there have been plenty of excellent contributions already and, if writing at length, mine would be very similar to the majority here. Please make sure he wears the medals. Miniature or not, they are his heritage, his nation's heritage and his great-grandfather's story and remembrance.

Ian

[KGB]

Oh how I wish the discussion on the other site had not been locked (and possibly deleted - I can not find it) because as soon the reply in this discussion saying the medals were not replicas but commemorative, hit the web, they stroppy ill informed went in for the kill on me! I was called for most everything. Delusional, on drugs, rude, disrespectful, offensive, and more. All this because they took offense at me saying they can be

which was not only offensive. But sexist. If only the irony was apparent to them who decided to harass me. I got supportive messages...via inbox only.

Apparently I'd already been given the 'right' answer ("no they can not be worn - and my xyz is military"; which appeared mixed up amongst "yes they can be worn - and my xyz is military" answers) and was being indignant by asking here because I didn't like the answers I got there (because I should have known a military history site would be more favorable to my query? how? I did not know the answer but thought a clear answer may well come from here, one way or the other).

I tried to explain to no avail, that the Ministry Of Defense refers families of WW1 participants to quality retail Minting services because they do not reissue ww1 medals even if lost in a fire or theft. Therefore, war office replacements are not available, only replicas are. It fell on deaf ears. What makes these replicas not commemorative is they are copies of WO issued medals, not specially minted medals to commemorate a special event in a military group. What muddies the waters is they're miniatures. Which as someone said were only used for certain occasions - so does that make miniatures commemorative? It doesn't seem to matter because veterans apparently sometimes use the miniatures on these occasions anyway.

In any event, I love the idea of having my grandads photos framed and a place for the medals too. It actually solves the issue as there is no need to actually wear them if they're framed and nephew is holding frame. So thats what we will do.

Thank you everyone for your respectful, considered input. It has been a pleasure.

You do not strike me as the druggie type. Carry on with the medals as 100% here have said. Send Mad Mums to us if conflict breaks out!

[McCrystalHarrison]

:lol: I appreciate the replies!!

I am sure my grandfather, if he could know, would be glad we're remembering him and his experience (and that of so many). Lest We Forget - we can all quibble about this issue in part because of their efforts 100 years ago.

[David Filsell]

Just get yourself off all unsocial media, twatter and etc, never give anyone your mobile number - they'll only use it as default and call you when you don't want to be called - and give yourself more time to make your own decisions and start living a real life.

[depaor01]

If you decide that wearing the medals is the way to go and you fear a backlash (which I'm certain won't happen in the real world of a commemorative event) why not bring along a copy of the official evidence of entitlement to the medals. Not sure if Medal Index cards cover Australian service, but a similar document should provide reassurance.

Real people are easier to convince than online keyboard-jockeys as David Filsell rightly points out.

Dave

[eairicbloodaxe]

Sooooo... How did it go?

[martin_sole]

Tell your stroppy ill informed mums the facts and let the lad honour his family and his nation by wearing the medals with pride - now and however long he is their custodian

This place really does need. "like" button

All the guff about repicas, reproductions and re-issues is a red herring. He could wear home made cardboard medals and the sentiment that David has pointed out would still be the same.

Let the lad pay respect to his great granddad on Anzac day.

Then submit a recipe to your mums site in which they all get to boil their own heads.

[Kitchener's Bugle]

I was at an event at the weekend an old chap had what I presumed to be his fathers medals on the right side of his chest... He looked fine and to be honest I noticed that a few people spoke to him and shook his hand.