CaptainMercaptan Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 G'day Gents As a first time (Australian) member of the forum, may I please ask for assistance in dating an ERA P14 I have just inherited. The Serial Number is 223476. The numbers on the action, bolt and barrel are matching. It appears that it has gone through the Weedon process as the front volley sight plate is present but not the sight arm. Alas, I have been unable to get a clear photo of the various stamps. The stamps on the LHS of the action/breech appear to be a 3 piece broard arrow uppermost, then a crown, then GR then crossed sword (?) and lance with pennant (?) or at least 2 crossed lines. On the RHS of the barrel under the rear top woodwork, near the breech are the same stamps with what looks like a 7 near the crown and a 17 below the crossed lance and batton(?) Your expert assistance in obtaining information about this rifle would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Based on acceptance data (MUN5/189/1400/21 US Deliveries), I believe ERA 223476 was accepted during Feb. 1917 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainMercaptan Posted 8 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2015 Thank you very much. I've subsequently done some careful cleaning and discovered the bolt actually doesn't match. The bolt is stamped 563684 with a capital E and a capital W stamped under the rear lower bolt lug. There is a 7 petal "flower stamp' with a dot in the centre on the top of the bolt arm. W = Winchester ? It appears the 223476 has been engraved at a later date. The barrel and action/breech have an eight petal stamp with a dot in the centre (as distinct from the 7 petal stamp on the bolt) above the stamped serial number Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 W is indeed Winchester. The Factory Codes: W (Winchester), E (Eddystone), R (Remington) were stamped on all the major components. As the P14 was independently engineered each of the three factories, it is generally considered that major components are not interchangeable between the three manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 W is indeed Winchester. The Factory Codes: W (Winchester), E (Eddystone), R (Remington) were stamped on all the major components. As the P14 was independently engineered each of the three factories, it is generally considered that major components are not interchangeable between the three manufacturers. Totally out of my depth here, not a rifle buff and not a machinery expert, but I thought Vickers supplied the gauges, patterns, etc., for the making of the P.14, so it seems a wee bit odd to me that there could such variations in major components. I'd appreciate clarification! TIA, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 I don't have my books handy for references at the moment but the three makes were sufficiently different that in 1916, P14s were approved by the War Office as three separate models: Mk.1E, Mk.1R, Mk.1W and later Mk.1*E, Mk.1*R, Mk.1*W. BTW, this is not to say that all parts will not fit, rather that one needs to know which ones will and which ones won't and so, I guess, to make life easier, the WO declared them to be different models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 The "flower petal mark" is actually just a fancy * (asterisk) used by Eddystone This was added when the bolt lugs were lengthened and the recesses deepened (in Dec 1916) so formally as Beerhunter notes above your rifle is a Pattern 1914 MkI*E Your rifle should also have a serial number on the rear sight leaf. The explanation for the variation in parts is, according to Stratton (Vol 4), that "In the rush to get the rifles to the British each factory operated independently in making design improvements" (p4) The details of these differences are listed in Mercaldo (Allied Rifle Contracts in American p139) where he lists changes that the British had made in the specifications (7 main ones and up to 20 minor ones) and indicates that "Not all modifications applied to all manufacturers, some were specific to particular manufacturers" The most obvious and visible difference is the use of the fatter, ungooved stock on earlier Eddystone rifles. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 April , 2015 Share Posted 8 April , 2015 I don't have my books handy for references at the moment but the three makes were sufficiently different that in 1916, P14s were approved by the War Office as three separate models: Mk.1E, Mk.1R, Mk.1W and later Mk.1*E, Mk.1*R, Mk.1*W. BTW, this is not to say that all parts will not fit, rather that one needs to know which ones will and which ones won't and so, I guess, to make life easier, the WO declared them to be different models. ... The explanation for the variation in parts is, according to Stratton (Vol 4), that "In the rush to get the rifles to the British each factory operated independently in making design improvements" (p4)... Many thanks, both. I can imagine that in the initial stages at least, there would also be the usual bureaucratic delays in getting changes approved by the WD back in GB. BTW, I used to live in the US of A (more than two decades ago!), and I have vague memories of chats with a guy then writing a book about German sabotage activities in NYC, and I seem to recall something about strikes also causing delays in production by US of A factories as a means of slowing down rifle production for GB - would that be for the P 1913? But don't let that take this off topic! Thanks again, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N White Posted 9 April , 2015 Share Posted 9 April , 2015 Interestingly, the lack of interchangability between makers later delayed the Model 1917 when the P14 design was reworked, as the US insisted on a certain standard. Winchester went ahead, and Remington Eddystone waited, the end result being the first 60,000 Winchesters were specially marked as being noncompliant. Amusingly, the reputation for the best rifles were those from Eddystone, set up in an old Locomotive plant just for the war, so much so that their rifles were preferred for overseas service over the other two (much more established) makers! The British solution of simply adopting 3 same but different standards seems more timely, if more difficult in the long run. Pesky things, tolerances... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 9 April , 2015 Share Posted 9 April , 2015 Amusingly, the reputation for the best rifles were those from Eddystone, set up in an old Locomotive plant just for the war, so much so that their rifles were preferred for overseas service over the other two (much more established) makers! This is interesting I was not aware of this. Eddystone certainly produced significantly more M1917s than the other two makers. I also don't think this judgement was shared by UK inspectors. In British service, for marksman/sniper variants with fine adjustment rear sights (F) and later telescopic (T) optical sights, only WINCHESTER rifles were used which the British inspectors appear to have decided were superior. Winchester made significantly fewer than either Eddystone or Remington. These rifles are burdened with the ungainly: Pattern 1914 MkI*W(F) and Pattern 1914 MkI*W(T) designation Later (post war) when the nomenclature had changed and the Pattern 14 became the rifle No3, there was also the No3MkI*(T)A fitted with a low mounted Aldis scope (hence the A) this required the rear sight protector ears to be milled off. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 9 April , 2015 Share Posted 9 April , 2015 A good thread this. It seems that those of us who thought that all of this was common knowledge were wrong. There is no doubt that the British preferred the Winchester P14 product but is the Eddystone reputation for a better product based on a US Government preference for the M1917. I hope so because I have one of the latter and it shoots extremely well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 9 April , 2015 Share Posted 9 April , 2015 I am after a deac M17 and any pointers welcome. Great thread BTW TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 9 April , 2015 Share Posted 9 April , 2015 I am after a deac M17 and any pointers welcome. Great thread BTW TT The US Government put them into store after the Great War and only issued the M1903 from then on. (NIH?) However they sold (note - sold not Lend Lease) nearly a million of them to the UK in 1940 and those rifles were mostly issued to the Home Guard. Due to the number of P14s kicking around in 1940, the M1971s had bloody big red stripes painted on the woodwork. In my opinion, those are the ones to go for. Sadly mine has come from Scandinavia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 April , 2015 Share Posted 10 April , 2015 ... Due to the number of P14s kicking around in 1940, the M1971s had bloody big red stripes painted on the woodwork. ... Not that big! My notes say that ACI 1571 (1940), para. 3, specified a 2 inch wide band of red paint with the calibre stenciled in black on that. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 10 April , 2015 Share Posted 10 April , 2015 Not that big! My notes say that ACI 1571 (1940), para. 3, specified a 2 inch wide band of red paint with the calibre stenciled in black on that. Trajan Have it your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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