Egyptian Village

[frev]

Can anyone help?

I'm looking for the correct spelling (call me pedantic) of a small village in Egypt (1917). In the various documents I have it is described as 'on the fringe of the desert', 'on the canal', near 'Inchas Railway Station', & 'near Abu Zabul' (or Zaabal).

The spellings in these various documents are:

Elsamwill; El-swaomel; Elzawamel; Zawamel; & El-Swamal

Does anyone know which one it is - if any?

Incidentally does anyone know of a good detailed map (or maps) of Egypt showing places like above - and Ismailia, Serapeum, Moascar, Tel-El-Kebir, Cairo, Alexandria etc etc?

Cheers, Frev.

[michaeldr]

Frev,

This will be of no help; nevertheless it may be of some consolation.

It is from A. W. Lawrence’s preface to T. E. Lawrence’s book ‘Seven Pillars of Wisdom’

“The spelling of Arabic names varies greatly in all editions, and I have made no alterations. It should be explained that only three vowels are recognized in Arabic, and that some of the consonants have no equivalents in English…………………………….

This book follows the old fashion of writing the best phonetic approximations according to ordinary English spelling. The same place-name will be found spelt in several different ways, not only because the sound of many Arabic words can legitimately be represented in English in a variety of ways, but also because the natives of a district often differ as to the pronunciation of any place-name which has not become famous or fixed by literary usage. (For example a locality near Akaba is called Abu Lissan, Aba el Lissan or Abu Lissal.)”

In short, perhaps there is no ‘correct’ spelling of Arabic place-names in Latin characters?

In any event, you are in very good company!

Regards

Michael D.R.

[frev]

Thanks Michael

So I guess what you're really saying is - I might as well just pick the one I like best!

Cheers, Frev

[michaeldr]

Frev,

That seems to have been the system TEL used

AWL’s preface quotes the former’s replies to some of his proof reader’s questions on the spelling of names

e.g.s:

Slip 1. Jeddah and Jidda used impartially throughout. Intentional?

TEL’s reply – ‘Rather!’

Slip 20. Nuri, Emir of the Ruwalla, belongs to the ‘chief family of the Rualla.’ On Slip 23 ‘Rualla horse’, and on Slip 38, ‘killed one Rueli’. In all later slips ‘Rualla’.

TEL’s reply – ‘Should also have used Ruwala and Ruala.’

Slip 78. Sherif Abd el Mayin of Slip 68 becomes el Main, el Mayein, elMuein, el Mayin, and le Muyein.

TEL’s reply – ‘Good egg. I call this really ingenious.’

Ingenious it may have been, but I can quite see how it might also have been tedious to a more tidy mind

On a more serious note, you might try a PM to Tom Lawrence, known on this forum as ‘telaw’ - as he has local knowledge of Egypt it may be possible that he can assist here

Regards

Michael D.R.

[frev]

Michael

Thanks for your suggestion re the PM.

And talking about suggestion - the "power of suggestion" that is - I visited my favourite book shop this afternoon - and what did I walk out with (amongst others) - why Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" of course!

Cheers, Frev

[Paul Hederer]

Frev,

There is a Az Zawamil, which may be what you're looking for. It's about 100km NNE of Cairo.

Here is a link:

http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/egyp...el-zawamil.html

(notice the difference in spellings )

There is a system for arabic called SATS (standard arabic transliteration system) but of course, it's not used by most (any?) authors.

Writing placenames for non-arabic speakers is a nightmare because of things like assimliation. For example, ALSWAMIL would be pronounced AS-SWAMIL.

Most of the time you can figure out what the author was hearing and then "back-transliterate" it to get the correct spelling.

In your case AZ ZAWAMIL, or AS SAWAMIL sound right to my ear.

As for a map, I'm not sure where you're from, but in the UK a trip to Borders or WH Smith will pay-off, they both have good map selections.

Paul

[frev]

Thanks Paul

It sounds like Az Zawamil is the place I'm looking for - I'll add it to my records.

Unfortunately the map-places are a little too far for a visit - though it would be nice to visit the UK - we actually have a place called Borders in Victoria, Australia - they sell books & CD's - but I've never seen any maps - might take a closer look next time I'm there!

Thanks again for your help

Frev

[southafricawargraves]

Can anyone help?

I'm looking for the correct spelling (call me pedantic) of a small village in Egypt (1917). In the various documents I have it is described as 'on the fringe of the desert', 'on the canal', near 'Inchas Railway Station', & 'near Abu Zabul' (or Zaabal).

- kinda sounds like Abu Simbel to me, in the deep south on Lake Nassar. UNESCO world heritage site, but may be underwater by now.

[Paul Hederer]

There is an Abu Za'bal or Abu Zabal in that same general area (NE Cairo). It is also a railroad station.

Paul Hederer

[Geoff S]

Part of

Map No. 1

Title: Egypt, 1/ 2,000,000.

from-British Official History of the Great War

Military Operations Egypt & Palestine (Map Vol 1.)

c 1930

The best map I could locate for the area you requested.

Cheers

Geoff S

[frev]

Wow!

Thanks Geoff

The map is brilliant - it'll really help me get things in perspective - all I have to do now is work out how to copy it!!

Cheers, Frev

[Max]

Frev

Right click on the image and "save (picture) as"

Andy

[frev]

Thanks Andy

Already worked it out - and thought I'd better come back & let everyone know before heaps of explainations appeared.

By the way it prints out beautifully for anyone that's interested in copying it.

Cheers, Frev