'Tom' Atkinson - North'd fusilier 1915, killed in 1936

[headgardener]

I have a photo of a young Northumberland Fusilier that I would like to know a little more about, and am hoping that someone can advise me on possible sources of research.

It's hard to tell, but he looks about 18-21 years old:

On the reverse it gives his name as 'Tom Atkinson', with a date of 1915:

The photo is in a 'patriotic' mount which matches the given date, and was taken by a local Newcastle photographer who was active at that time.

On the reverse of the card it indicates that he was killed in (presumably) a mining accident in 1936:

Now, obviously Tom (or Thomas or Tommy) Atkinson was a very common name and, assuming that he served overseas with the North'd Fus, there are about 20 possible candidates among the MIC's. The fact that the approximate date and circumstances of his death are known may help to establish his exact name and service details. At the time of his death he would presumably have been about 40 years old and working in a pit somewhere in the north-east of England.

I was wondering whether there is any record of mining accidents, or of miners who served in the war?

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how best to proceed with this?

Many thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions regarding this man....!

[ss002d6252]

Nothing obvious on the Durham Mining Museum site - http://www.dmm.org.uk/mindex.htm

Craig

[IPT]

I can't find any likely candidate in the death records.

There was a Thomas Henry Atkinson who died following an accident at a colliery in December 1935, but he was only 27.

I did wonder if it was actually "John", but it does look more like "Tom".

[headgardener]

Nothing obvious on the Durham Mining Museum site - http://www.dmm.org.uk/mindex.htm

Craig

Thanks for checking this Craig. I have absolutely no knowledge of resources for researching mines and mining!

I can't find any likely candidate in the death records.

There was a Thomas Henry Atkinson who died following an accident at a colliery in December 1935, but he was only 27.

I did wonder if it was actually "John", but it does look more like "Tom".

Hmmm.... That's interesting. Thanks for looking. Yes, maybe 'John' - I hadn't seen that before - or perhaps even 'Sam'....?

It's always possible that the date could be wrong, I suppose.

[johnboy]

You could try a name search

http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/index.html

[mancpal]

Hi

I'll start by saying I have no real experience of Colliery research but started a thread recently relating to Bradford pit in Manchester. I'm hoping to find some detail of the servicemen listed on their roll of honour (listed in The Manchester Book Of Honour) though the list gives only names, no regts or numbers.

I've only just started out with this but have found early on that Bradford pit archives are almost non existent. One of the problems seems to be that the mines were in private hands in the era we're concerned about and documents seem to have disappeared after nationalisation when a uniform operating system would have been introduced.

I'm not sure if the N.U.M. have archives that far back but if Atkinson was killed in a pit accident (and was of course a member) they may be worth contacting as they would certainly have become involved.

I hope I'm not deemed as hijacking your thread, I intend to follow it and if I chance upon any anything that may be of interest to you I'll post it.

Finally, one of the 5 Manchester colliers I have some info on survived the war but sadly was killed in a pit accident not too long after

Simon

[helpjpl]

I've trawled through the British Newspaper Archive, North East newspapers, for 1936 and couldn't find a death announcement for an Atkinson or a report of a pit accident involving an Atkinson that fits.

JP

[clk]

A real, real longshot (and unfortunately I don't have a subscription to check), but the Union record http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records?firstname=t*&lastname=atkinson&eventyear=1936&eventyear_offset=2&collection=guild-and-trade-associations might be his.

Regards

Chris

[ss002d6252]

A real, real longshot (and unfortunately I don't have a subscription to check), but the Union record http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records?firstname=t*&lastname=atkinson&eventyear=1936&eventyear_offset=2&collection=guild-and-trade-associations might be his.

Regards

Chris

Out of look with this one unfortunately - it's a Boilermakers & iron shipbuilders admission record from 1942.

Craig

[headgardener]

Well..... This is a strange one.

You could try a name search

http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/disasters/index.html

Thanks very much for posting this link. Strangely, he doesn't appear to be on the list of men killed in mining accidents. The list appears to be 99% accurate as well.

I've trawled through the British Newspaper Archive, North East newspapers, for 1936 and couldn't find a death announcement for an Atkinson or a report of a pit accident involving an Atkinson that fits.

JP - I'm very grateful to you for taking the time to check this. Thank you! This is all very odd.....

A real, real longshot (and unfortunately I don't have a subscription to check), but the Union record http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records?firstname=t*&lastname=atkinson&eventyear=1936&eventyear_offset=2&collection=guild-and-trade-associations might be his.

Thanks Chris - it is a long shot, but the man's initial is correct, and the year and the area seem to be right. Sadly, I don't have a subscription to FMP either.....! I wonder what it shows?

[headgardener]

Out of look with this one unfortunately - it's a Boilermakers & iron shipbuilders admission record from 1942.

Craig

Damn....!!!! Thanks anyway Craig!

Maybe the info on the back of the card is wrong and he didn't die in a pit accident, or he didn't die in 1936. Or the pit in question wasn't in the UK, perhaps....? Hmmmmm.... This is all very curious.....

[ss002d6252]

No problem, it would help my replies if I could spell !

Craig

[headgardener]

No problem, it would help my replies if I could spell !

Ah thought yew wor typin' wi' a regional accent, canny lad...!

[mancpal]

Headgardener,

Another very long shot I'm afraid but I'll try to illustrate my point.

In the Manchester Book Of Honour there is a section where numerous local firms have their rolls of honour printed. There is the roll for the Bradford Colliery Co. (East Manchester) Which amongst the list of names is one T.Atkinson. The roll is for all miners who volunteered early in the war and as such , I believe, the men had a choice of regiments. This could mean a Manchester Collier could easily have ended up with the Nothumberland Fusiliers, as I suppose could a miner from any other coal field. The other thought I had was that your Atkinson may not even have been a miner before his military service thus ruling out Colliery rolls from that period.

I previously stated that virtually no records exist for Bradford pit and I now believe it to be true of many mines. My ancestors actually owned mines in the Wigan coal field and there doesn't seem to a great deal about them either. I can't find anything about a mining accident listed for Bradford in 1936 but there's no guarantee he would have returned to the same pit after service.

Good luck with the search,

Simon

[headgardener]

Another very long shot I'm afraid but I'll try to illustrate my point.

In the Manchester Book Of Honour there is a section where numerous local firms have their rolls of honour printed. There is the roll for the Bradford Colliery Co. (East Manchester) Which amongst the list of names is one T.Atkinson. The roll is for all miners who volunteered early in the war and as such , I believe, the men had a choice of regiments. This could mean a Manchester Collier could easily have ended up with the Nothumberland Fusiliers, as I suppose could a miner from any other coal field. The other thought I had was that your Atkinson may not even have been a miner before his military service thus ruling out Colliery rolls from that period.

I previously stated that virtually no records exist for Bradford pit and I now believe it to be true of many mines. My ancestors actually owned mines in the Wigan coal field and there doesn't seem to a great deal about them either. I can't find anything about a mining accident listed for Bradford in 1936 but there's no guarantee he would have returned to the same pit after service.

Simon - many thanks for posting this! Interesting to hear of a 'T. Atkinson' in the Bradford pit. I imagine that difficulties will arise in attempting to link him to a man in the North'd Fus in 1915 who can then be linked to a death in 1936. The fact that no-one has so far been able to come up with a likely death matching this date is very puzzling. I'm in no doubt that the annotations on the back of the card are authentic, so I'm not sure what to make of the fact that they don't appear to match any English (or presumably Scottish or Welsh) civil records.

The whole matter is complicated by the fact that the private ownership of the pits meant that records of miners now appear to be relatively thin on the ground, as you stated in your earlier post.

Maybe he emigrated and was working in another country when he died? Maybe he didn't die in 1936, or wasn't down a pit when he died? Maybe 'Tom' isn't actually his name? A very curious case so far......

[helpjpl]

This is a tough one.

It may be that his middle name was Thomas and he was called Tom by his family. Quite possible if he had the same names as his father. Having said that, I couldn't find anything that fitted for an 'Atkinson' of his approximate age in the north east newspapers for 1936.

It is also possible that he was killed overseas which may explain why the pit wasn't named. (An official report on accidents in mines, metallurgical works, quarries, clay, sand and gravel pits in Ontario during 1936 shows 2,413 accidents to employees and 63 fatalities - of which 32 were British. No Atkinson recorded.)

If you add Atkinson to the title of your thread there's a chance a relation may come across it on Google.

JP

[headgardener]

This is a tough one.

It may be that his middle name was Thomas and he was called Tom by his family. Quite possible if he had the same names as his father. Having said that, I couldn't find anything that fitted for an 'Atkinson' of his approximate age in the north east newspapers for 1936.

It is also possible that he was killed overseas which may explain why the pit wasn't named. (An official report on accidents in mines, metallurgical works, quarries, clay, sand and gravel pits in Ontario during 1936 shows 2,413 accidents to employees and 63 fatalities - of whom 32 were British. No Atkinson recorded.)

If you add Atkinson to the title of your thread there's a chance a relation may come across it on Google.

Many thanks for your help, JP. I've changed the title of the thread, as you suggested (Good idea! Thanks!). I really thought this one would be easy....! Thanks also for making me think again about whether this man was necessarily a miner - I automatically imagined that the 'pit' in question would be a coal mine, but it could just as easily have been a gravel pit, or similar.

I'm certainly aware of the possibility that men served under adopted names rather than given names (I was called 'Jim' for many years, dating from my ability as a 6 year old to recite large chunks of dialogue from an LP recording of 'Treasure Island' - and my name isn't James, btw...!).

[helpjpl]

This throws a spanner in the works !!!

Thomas Atkinson Carse . Born Crossgate. Birth registered Jul-Aug-Sep 1890 in Durham. Father Henry was a miner.

Private Thomas Carse, 15334, Northumberland Fusiliers. There is also a Sapper Thomas A Carse, 160213, Royal Engineers - but I think he died in 1959.

Thomas Atkinson Carse, hewer, killed by a fall of stone, aged 42, at Ushaw Moor Colliery, on 13 March 1933 and buried at Ushaw Moor Cemetery.

Thomas A Carse, birth date abt 1891, age at death 42. Death registered March 1933, Durham.

Durham Mining Museum - Ushaw Moor Colliery

(Scroll down to 'Names of those killed at this colliery')

JP

[IPT]

Private Thomas Carse, 15334, Northumberland Fusiliers.

You can rule out this man. His medal card shows that he died after discharge on 27/11/1919. I think he was 42.

[ss002d6252]

Interestingly the Durham Mining Museum Site has a list of men who served, presumably from colliery rolls of honour.

There is a T Atkinson on the list - http://www.dmm.org.uk/warserve/names_at.htm- but it's anyone's guess if it's him.

Craig

[helpjpl]

You can rule out this man. His medal card shows that he died after discharge on 27/11/1919. He was 42.

Apologies. I hadn't scrolled down to "Correspondence' & 'Address'.

JP

[mancpal]

Headgardener

Bet you wish you'd never heard the words " Tommy" or "Atkinson" !

Simon

[headgardener]

This throws a spanner in the works !!!

Thomas Atkinson Carse . Born Crossgate. Birth registered Jul-Aug-Sep 1890 in Durham. Father Henry was a miner.

Private Thomas Carse, 15334, Northumberland Fusiliers. There is also a Sapper Thomas A Carse, 160213, Royal Engineers - but I think he died in 1959.

Thomas Atkinson Carse, hewer, killed by a fall of stone, aged 42, at Ushaw Moor Colliery, on 13 March 1933 and buried at Ushaw Moor Cemetery.

Thomas A Carse, birth date abt 1891, age at death 42. Death registered March 1933, Durham.

Durham Mining Museum - Ushaw Moor Colliery

(Scroll down to 'Names of those killed at this colliery')

Private Thomas Carse, 15334, Northumberland Fusiliers - You can rule out this man. His medal card shows that he died after discharge on 27/11/1919. I think he was 42.

Thank you both very much for these details - especially JP for a bit of lateral thinking regarding his name (possibly....). So, maybe Atkinson is his middle name, in which case he *could* be the Spr., RE. In which case he would have to have served previously at home in the North'd Fus. The age would be right, and the place of death would be right, the date of death would be out by 3 years.......

JP - what makes you think Spr. Thomas A Carse died in 1959?

[headgardener]

Interestingly the Durham Mining Museum Site has a list of men who served, presumably from colliery rolls of honour.

There is a T Atkinson on the list - http://www.dmm.org.uk/warserve/names_at.htm- but it's anyone's guess if it's him.

Craig

Regarding my last post (above); this site posted by Craig shows a W. Carse and a Harry Carse from Ushaw Moor Colliery as having served during WW1, but not a Thomas or Thomas A or T A Carse.

[helpjpl]

Thank you both very much for these details - especially JP for a bit of lateral thinking regarding his name (possibly....). So, maybe Atkinson is his middle name, in which case he *could* be the Spr., RE. In which case he would have to have served previously at home in the North'd Fus. The age would be right, and the place of death would be right, the date of death would be out by 3 years.......

JP - what makes you think Spr. Thomas A Carse died in 1959?

The MIC card for Sapper Thomas A Carse, RE, states SWB List R.E / 662. Would he be fit enough to work as a hewer down a pit ?

This may be him:

Thomas Arthur Carse: Birth registered 1887, Cambridge.

Thomas A Carse: Death registered 1959, Cambridge, aged 72.

The writing on the back of the photo looks to be that of an elderly person. Could it be that the writer added those details many years later and got muddled up with the Wharncliffe Woodmoor Colliery disaster which claimed 58 lives on 6 August 1936 ?

There is a reasonably detailed family tree that includes Thomas Atkinson Carse on ancestry. Sadly no photo and no military records added.

Hopefully a relation will spot your thread on Google.

JP