Underground accomodations.

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Hello!

While reading the recent topic about the tunnels

(http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22532),

I was wondering if somebody can tell me, how much place was made beneath our feets her in Flanders Fields? Approximate...

I read about one :'Wallangra' (Hill 63 dug-outs); accomodations for 1200 men to sleep! With also a hospital and a communication centre!

Greetings from rainy Flanders!

Joris

[genevrac]

Hi Joris,

You maybe interested to know that a book has very recently been published, "Beneath Flanders Fields" - The Tunnellers War 1914 - 1918, it has been written and compiled by Peter Barton, Peter Doyle and Johan Vandewalle. The book covers details about the tunnellers and mining, but how they also constructed dugouts and various other stuctures, along with the fact that many of them are still here in Flanders to this day. There are photo's/pictures/diagrams contained within the book, many being seen in this book for the first time.

I know that the Ariane Hotel have just had a stock of the books delivered to their hotel, possibly Talbot House and the Tourist Information Centre may also have this book in stock. I have only just started to read it, but I can tell you that it contains many good images and quotes from soldiers, including German's also.

Kind regards

Genevra

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Thanks Genevra!

I'll buy that book in the near future from Johan Vandewalle(De Dreve-Polygoonwood), it is almost Christmas!!. (Johan build the exposition at Diksmuide.)

But I have been told some years ago, during 'the' big discussion about the existence of tunnels at Nieuwpoort, when some houses were cracking, that the Royal Engineers has built in the Salient accomodations for 120000 men beneath the earth!!!!! ?

Greetings!

Joris

[Guest bonza]

G'day Joris

The Australian Tunnellers "built" what they called the Catacombs under Hill 63.

At the link I have posted on the "Beneath Flanders Fields" thread there is a small reference to this and to the accommodation of 2 complete divisions underground.

I "understand" that similar facilities were used near Zillebeek Lake in the lead up to the Battle of the Menin Road, but don't have proof available.

ooRoo

Pat

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Hallo!

I visited Johan at De Dreve yesterday. He told there was accomodation to approximate 45000 men benaeth the salient in 1917. But no evidence.

Greetings

Joris

[Aurel Sercu]

Joris and Pat,

Yes, I have heard these figures too. And have always been very sceptical.

120.000 people underground (one hundred and twenty thousand) ?

Or a few less : 45.000 people underground ?

And two divisions ? (2 x 15.000 = 30.000)

That's an awful lot of people !

I think the total population of Ypres (city + nearest villages) is approx. 35.000 people. I must say that imagining all these people underground is not an easy thing to do. For me that is. But then, my imagination is no longer what it used to be.

On the other hand I do not want to cast any doubt on Johan Vandewalle. He is the expert. And I may find the answer in his book (which I have but which I have not had the time to read).

Aurel

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Hallo Aurel!

Yes, Johan was talking about accomodations for almost 3 divisions underground while preparing the Third Battle of Ypres. It's difficult to figure.

Greets!

Joris

PS: I was there to order the translated version! Will be for december. A early Chritmas gift to myself.

[Aurel Sercu]

Joris,

I'm glad I am not the only one who has a not really powerful imagination.

Three divisions ? Unbelievable. When I think of Yorkshire Trench Dug-out, for about a dozen men (officiers...)

(By the way, I was cleverer than you are : I bought the English version, giving myself an early St-Martin gift !

Aurel

[mebu]

Hope I'm not too late to catch the thread.....I haven't read the book referred to yet, seems interesting and is now on my list...however there is some information on dugouts and accommodation currently available.

The figure of 1.200 men quoted for Hill 63 , the Catacombs or Wallangara, is high....the engineers drawings show 15 "streets" or corridors, each equipped with between 38 bunks, for runners and clerks, similar numbers for batmen, and 24 bunks, for officers, so the total would be around half of the 1,200 quoted.

The Catacombs dugout , now sealed off, was equipped with electric lighting and ventilation; the electric generator house, a concrete construction, is still there, towards Red Lodge from Hyde Park Corner.

For the area of the Salient, there certainly was a high number of dugouts, some of considerable size, constructed by the British/Australians/Canadians from September 1917 onwards. Following the discovery of Zonnebeke Church dugout , Bremen Redoubt and others in the 1980s, Aleks Deseyne, the then curator of the Zonnebeke Streekmuseum, researched and reported on the dugouts in the Zonnebeke/Passchendaele/Geluveld area...a total of around 85 dugouts, some of modest size but many with a capacity of around 250...one of the larger being Hooge Crater dugout, with Brigade HQ, kitchen, and accommodation for 20 officers and 500 men. (presumably this report is still in Zonnebeke, if not I have a copy)

I think it unlikely that whole Divisions would have been underground, but certainly Brigade staff used dugouts, so the number of trglodytes during the winter of 1917/18 must have been considerable.

Peter.

[Joris Ryckeboer]

Better late than never, Peter. Thanks!

Are there figures at the drawings?

Tony Spagnoly and Ted Smith stated in there Battle field Guide about 'Plugstreet';

that 'Wallangara' or 'Catacombs' (I love those synonyms!! The official name was Hill 63 Dugouts) was made by the First Australian Tunelling Company in three (3!!) months. Tony and Ted said 1200 places to sleep AND 250 places for officers and men?

Secondly, don't you think it was of very big tactical importance that all men, designated for the offensive, had to be well hidden and in safety before the jump off at the start of the 3th Ypres? First line aswell as the reserve troops?

Joris

[mebu]

Joris, Re Catacombs at Hill 63: the 1st Australian Tunneling Company began the work in Sept 1916 and finished it by Nov 1st, when they handed it over to IX Corps, futher alterations were then carried out by 11th Aus Field Coy who made engineering drawings....these drawings do not give total accommodation but do show the layout of bunks for officers, batmen, runners etc, I haven't counted but as I may have already said, it is about half of the 1,200 already suggested. Tony Spagnoly - a historian I admire - and I had some long correspondences about the Catacombs dugout (mainly some technical details and entrance locations) some 5 or 6 years ago, and we basically agreed to differ on some points.

Bear in mind that this dugout was nothing to do with the start of the 3rd Ypres battle. Also, the 80odd dugouts in the Zonnebeke area were well after the battle had started, and were for accommodation over winter 1917/18 in the forward area wilderness that had been created.

I do not think that there was such accommodation for many troop before the battle began, the few dugouts were for Battalion and Brigade HQs,, communications etc.

Hope this is of use to you, Peter.

[Aurel Sercu]

When expressing my scepticism, in a previous posting, with regard to the high numbers often quoted of men being accommodated in deep dug-outs, I must say that I based my opinion on the Yorkshire Trench Dug-out (Boezinge). And I am in no way saying that this one was typical of all dug-outs in the Ypres Salient. There may have been others indeed (far behind the lines, or dating from after IIIrd Ypres) that served other purposes, and may have been a lot larger. (I just don't know (yet), for I haven't read Johan Vandewalle's and Peter Barton's 'Beneath Flanders Fields')

As to Yorkshire Trench Dug-out, this drawing shows that the number of men accommodated in it cannot possibly have been very high. There were (are) 11 rooms (among them pump rooms, carpenter, armourer, tools), a command room (extreme right) and 4 rooms (2 x 2) on both sides of the corridor leading to the command room. I don't remember if bunks were found in the command room, but IIRC there were (or there was room for) 4 x 2 = 8 bunks in the 4 other rooms.

So : for how many men (officers) ? Not more than a dozen it seems to me. Certainly not hundreds.

This dug-out was a double battalion headquarters (13th and 16th Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 38th (Welsh) Division). From it the British attack for the Battle of Pilckem Ridge was launched (31 July 1917. And the jump off of the attacking battalions was from the nearby trenches, they did not emerge from the dug-out.

Aurel

[jhill]

... snip, snip ...

I do not think that there was such accommodation for many troop before the battle began, the few dugouts were for Battalion and Brigade HQs,, communications etc.

...snip.

This would certainly agree with the descriptions I have looked at concerning the Canadian operations in October and November, 1917. The documents seem to agree that there was no shelter at all for the men in the forward area.

For the final attack on Passchendaele Village on November 6, the 6th Brigade, comprising the larger part of the force, bivoacked its assault battalions at Potijze and Abraham Heights until the night before the attack, because there was no shelter for them forward.

There are, however, many references to the captured "pillboxes", of which there several dozen in this area. They were used exclusively for headquarters and dressing stations. They were small, however, so that in the later case, they could not always accomodate stretchers inside. There are some references to headquarters personel setting up lean-tos on the west sides of such things.

[Aurel Sercu]

And this is the plan of a "Typical Dugout, capacity two battalion Headquarters"

- 2 rooms Officers' bunks

- 2 batmen and kitchen

- 1 office and mess

- 2 signals and orderlies

- 1 office and mess

How many men in all ?

Aurel