alan jones Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Hello , I have come across a family member on the 1911 census being with the 2Bn Devonshire regiment , aged 21 and a Private . The census gives Reg District number as 641 , Ed , Instituition or Vessel as Malta and Piece 34986. I would ideally like to find out a bit about his service if possible , I would have thought he would have served in WW1. Any help much appreciated Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Alan The 2nd Devons were stationed in Malta 1910-12 then moving to Egypt from whence they returned to England in 1914 for war service. Any other details about him that you can tell us, such as date and place of birth and residence,would be helpful. However here is a MIC that might possibly be for your man: Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woollamc Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 William Henry Fisher in the 1911 census with 2nd Devonshire Regiment was born in South Molton. In 1901 Census, there is a William Fisher, (born at South Molton) living with his aunt, Rhoda Cowler in Marionleigh. There is a William Henry Fisher listed twice in the Soldier's Effects register as having died whilst serving with 2nd Devonshire Regiment. The first entry gives his date of death as "on or since" 10 March 1915 and the second says that he died in a hospital on 10 March 1915. His sole legatee in both entries was an aunt, Rhoda Cowler. His service number was 8617. He had been in France from 6 November 1914, qualifying for a 1914 Star but the entry in the medal rolls says that he "Died (off purpose)" and, in the rolls for the British War Medal and Victory Medal it says "Death regarded". There do not appear to be entries for him in the Soldier's Who Died in the Great War data set nor at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. I have no idea what "Died (off purpose)" means but, if this man is your relative, it may be worth investigating whether this is a non-commemoration. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Hi Alan, It looks like his original attestation, etc may be available from Findmypast http://search.findmypast.co.uk/results/united-kingdom-records-in-military-armed-forces-and-conflict?firstname=william%20henry&lastname=fisher&yearofbirth=1890&yearofbirth_offset=2&keywords=southmolton Regards Chris EDIT: "Died (off purpose)" = died for official purposes??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 17 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Thank you everyone , that certainly is our man .Off Purpose is certainly a strange term, It does not sound like he was killed in action .I wonder where he is buried then ? We are a bit wiser now anyway . Thanks again Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERITAGE PLUS Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Alan FMP has a William Henry Fisher matching your man's age dying in Exeter in 1917. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 17 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Thank you Dave , I will have a look . I wonder if the "Off Purpose " is just the opposite to " On Purpose " ? Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Following up Dave's post #6 Reported in the Western Times of 20 August 1917 there was an internment of a William Henry FISHER, Holy Trinity, 27 years. in Exeter Cemetery on August 18th 1917. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 17 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2015 Thank you for that , I wonder where he lay from 10/3/15 then . Died sounds more like hospital as opposed to killed in action . Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woollamc Posted 17 March , 2015 Share Posted 17 March , 2015 There is an earlier entry in the 14 Star rolls for Harold George Bowden who also died "off purpose" but it is written "Off. purposes" from which I take it to mean that he was presumed dead for "official purposes" Obvious really, when I come to think about it! 2nd Devonshire suffered scores of casualties on 10 October 1915, presumably at Neuve Chapelle and a large number of the fallen are commemorated at Le Touret Memorial because their bodies were never found. All the records on Ancestry give 10 March 1915 as the date of William Fisher's presumed death and although one of the two entries in Soldier's Effects mentions that he died in hospital, there is nothing to suggest that he died in England or that he had been discharged before his death. This really does look like a non commemoration. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 18 March , 2015 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2015 Thanks again for that , my paternal grandfather took part in the battle at Neuve Chapelle too . I am not sure what you do as regard a " Non Commemoration " but have emailed the CWGC stating the facts . I guess if I was to look at the 2nd Btn Devonshire Rgt it would probably only mention " other rank " ? I am now making enquiries on his internment . Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 18 March , 2015 Share Posted 18 March , 2015 Could be a case for the In From The Cold Project if he died as a result of a war related injury/illness, death cert needed as proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 18 March , 2015 Share Posted 18 March , 2015 ................. I am not sure what you do as regard a " Non Commemoration " but have emailed the CWGC stating the facts .......................... Regards Alan The CWGC recognises that there are many cases of Non Commemoration which are only now being identified. If you go to THIS page on their website, and scroll down to 'The In From The Cold Project' you will be able to read about this organisation and the work of the volunteers involved (and click on a link to the website). THIS link will take you to the Non Commemorations section of this Great War Forum. CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 21 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Hello , I sent off for what I thought might have been William Henry Fisher death cert in Exeter in 1917 but has turned out not to be our William . Seeing that the MIC and Soldiers Effects give a death I am now wondering how to find the death cert or proof of his death so I might be able to move forward to perhaps a " Commemoration " I would have thought the poor lad would have some paperwork other than "Effects " Any suggestions on a way forward would be much appreciated , thank you . Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Alan, I recommend you ask a Mod to move this thread to the Possible non-commemorations section of the forum so the right people see it. You can do this by clicking on "Report" under your first post and making the request. CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 21 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Ok thank you , I have just had a reply from the Devonshire Regiment Museum , sadly they have no record of him or his death . They say that there were 274 other ranks killed between the 10-14th March 1915 but they dont have their names . They suggested looking at Civil Deaths , which I have done and also Army Registration Indexes , probably at the NA at Kew . Its frustrating not know his end . Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 21 April , 2015 Share Posted 21 April , 2015 I have found in INDEX TO WAR DEATHS 1914 - 1921 ARMY (OTHER RANKS) the following entry: Name: FISHER William H. Rank: Pte. Number: 8617 Unit: Devon Year: 1915: *Volume: I. 59 Page: 278 (*NB the Volume is a capital i.59 not a 1.59 or a small L.59) This is what you need to know to send off for the Death Certificate from the GRO. Do not expect the amount of information found on a "Home" DC but hopefully it will have sufficient information to support a request for Commemoration. If you send off for it please let us know what it says and someone from 'The In From The Cold Project' will be able to advise you on what to do next. CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 21 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 April , 2015 Thank you so much , I was beginning to despair after the reply I got from Regimental Museum . I will send off tomorrow and report back when it arrives . Thanks again Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGM Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 I was very pleased to have found it for you! CGM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 22 April , 2015 Share Posted 22 April , 2015 Hang slack on the DC as I will check with Terry Denham to see if he is already in the pipeline at IFCP Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 23 April , 2015 Share Posted 23 April , 2015 He is not one of the cases at IFCP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 23 April , 2015 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2015 Hi Chris , thank you anyway , I phoned the order through yesterday for his death cert so will be fascinated to see what it says .Hopefully first step towards Commemoration . Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan jones Posted 9 May , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 May , 2015 Hello , I have just received his death certificate which states Army number 8617 , Private 2nd Bn , William Henry Fisher aged 25 , Born England , date of death 10-3-1915 , place of death France , cause of death --Regarded as dead { on or since date , for off. purposes . I must say I am disappointed not to know where he lies etc but hopefully this is another step towards Non Commemoration , I have his baptism , attestation , war gratuity and Effects , MIC . Any thoughts welcomed Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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