11th Battalion Scottish Rifles...Cameronians

[dergav]

I am trying to locate a place called Karg or Carg at WW1 time near Thessaloniki ...through great fantastic help on this Forum elsewhere from Rob I have now sourced that place name as being where my Grandfather in the 11th Battalion Scottish Rifles was killed by a shell on 2nd November 1917...battalion war diary entry for that date. We are visiting his grave at Karasoulli Cemetery at end of this month ..and if possible would like to visit the general area where he was killed. ...

However I cannot make head nor tail of any Greek maps I have sourced in terms of that location name...other location names such as Homondos/Salmah/Ada also appear relevant for that date.

Any information/tips or advice will be greatly appreciated

regards

[Gardenerbill]

Dergav,

I have a copy of the Salonika Campaign Societies trench map CD, and while researching my grandfathers service in the Balkans I kept referring to maps trying to find places and in the end my OCD got the better of me and I created a list of all the place names on the maps. I cannot find a place called Carg or Karg in the list however the adjutant often wrote a phonetic version of the local place name in the diary. If you can provide some other place names mentioned in the diary around the time it may be possible to work out where they were.

11th Cameronians were in 77th Brigade, 26th Division, XII Corps. XII Corps were responsible for the sector of the line from the river Vardar to Lake Doiran and for a time the valley to the east of lake doiran.

The problem with visiting this area is that it is around the border of Greece and FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) and is politically very sensitive, armed border guards etc. If you want to visit this area you need a local guide or better still sign up for one of the twicw yearly SCS organised trips to the area.

[apwright]

Could it be "Crag"??

There's a position marked on the trench maps, in 26th Division's sector, on a rocky hill known to the Brits as The Crag, just 2 km forward of Caussica, where your grandfather was buried before being reinterred at Karasouli in 1920.
Trouble is, Caussica was also a concentration cemetery, with graves brought in from a number of battlefield graveyards in 1919. However, as the five Cameronians killed that day all appear to have been buried together in Plot 1, perhaps it's probable that Caussica was their original resting place.

On Google Earth, the coords of The Crag are 41.0838 22.6379 (well inside the Greek border, so should be pretty easy to visit!).

Adrian

P.S. Ignore Homondos/Salmah/Ada (now called Mitrousi, Konstantinato & Skoutari). They are in the Struma Valley, miles away!

[dergav]

Gardenerbill......Thanks for that...I hope to have the relevant page extracts from the Battalions war diary soon...but have advice on its content for 2nd November 1917 as covered earlier...What I have been advised also is an extract from a Capts diary from a Unit in the same area of conflict at the time but only up to end October ( not covering 2nd November) mentioning the Scottish Rifles (only the 11th Bn were with 26 Div),in tandem with a Scottish Horse unit,around mid-October,had attacked at HOMONDOS and captured around 150 Bulgars. Later,24/25 Oct, attempts were made to get in behind the two small places called SALMAH and ADA in order to displace the Garrisons there.

They are the only other named places I have at this time.Dont know if they may mean anything to yourself?

If I can identify locations on a map and it proves too dangerous or difficult to travel to those locations then so be it...we would go as near as permitted...our real purpose in our visit is to visit and pay respects at his grave in Karasoulli cemetery...but it would be of advantage to find out as much as possible before travelling.

thanks

[dergav]

Adrian..

thanks for that ...really helpful...and yes i suppose it could be Crag...and given the original burial place nearby thaty seems possible?..

Would you know ? ...Is Caussica still a cemetery or was it closed in 1920?..indeed is it still a "place".

thanks

Derek

[Gardenerbill]

As Adrian points out Salmah, Ada and Homondos are in the Struma valley, this sector was the responsibility of XVI Corps, 19th Brigade of XVI Corps had 2 Cameronian battalions 1st and 1/5th, by 1917 cavalry were attached to Corps, XVI Corps cavalry were Derbyshire and Surrey Yeomanry.

The XIIth Corps cavalry were The Lothian and Border Horse Yeomanry.

I think you need to double check the Captains diary to be sure which Cameronians he served with.

[apwright]

Regarding Homondos, Salmah etc., could there be some confusion somewhere with the Cameron Highlanders??

The second raid on Homondos (13-14/10/17) was carried out by 2nd Bn Cameron Highlanders and 13th Black Watch (Scottish Horse), both of 81st Brigade, 27th Division.

The raids on Salmah, Kispeki and Ada (25/10) heavily involved 10th Cameron Highlanders (Lovat Scouts) of 82nd Brigade, 27th Div.

Different divisions, different corps, and 45 miles from Caussica.

There's nowt but fields at Caussica these days, though it is possible to trace the line of the old railway and the site of Caussica Station (41.074 22.655). It was never much more than a stop on the railway and a casualty clearing station.

Adrian

[dergav]

Thanks again both..think you are correct...need to take time out and revise all information I have..as it can get confusing...

[dergav]

Just wanted to post a short note to update and thank everyone who helped me...particularly Rob and apwright...but everyone else as well.

We had a successful trip to Thessaloniki and found the Cemetery and the grave at Karasouli. From the coordinates given we located the place where my grandfather was killed on 2nd November 1917 by a Bulgarian shell on a remote Greek hillside. In case anyone else is ever researching then the word for the location is "CRAG" near Kastro on the coordinates given, being what a Scotsman would call the hillside rock formation . There would be no reason for a Greek name for that remote hillside location.When we climbed the small rocky hill we found at the rear an area excavated out of the rock which would have fitted a battery/gun placement....along with obvious indentations on the land of former trenches leading to the placement.

While there we also located our grand uncles grave in Kembet Military Cemetery in Thessaloniki who died of disease in the WW1.

So thanks again to all...this is a marvellous site with helpful informed members. I was lucky to trip across it.

cheers

Derek

[Gardenerbill]

Derek,

Pleased you managed to locate the place where your Grandfather gave his life, must have been quite emotional for you, did you take any photographs?

It would be interesting to see them if you have time to post them.

[dergav]

Mark..thanks..will attempt later to attach some photos but my IT skills are very limited!!...I know..it will be simple but not to me...but over the coming days I will try

Got some photos of the Karasouli cemetery ( and the Military Cemetery Kembet Road Saloniki ) and the remote hillside where the incident took place..which I need to download to laptop from camera....but it is just a remote and wild place with little to photo.

I did say in earlier post that we thought the obvious "excavation" was for the gun placement BUT the more I think about it it is more likely to be the area where the Bulgarian shell exploded...and exactly as it was almost 100 years ago...no apparent reason for anyone doing anything with it...the location reminded me of a remote scottish moor.

Anyway I will try and post some pics

cheers

Derek