july 1916 linen trench map

[mancpal]

We have in our family a linen trench map of the Gommecourt/Hebuterne sector of the Somme which is from C.S.M. J.B. Hill D.C.M. of the Queens Westminster Rifles. The Q.W.R.s were there on the 1st July 1916 so I'm assuming it dates back to then. It has a hand written note on it denoting a German telephone wire and possibly other bits (mental block!). My question is as follows.

What was the specific purpose of such a large map? Was it intended to be carried over the top? I was wondering if they were meant to remain in British trenches to be updated after patrols and then returned to H.Q. as the latest intelligence (I made this bit up so stand to be corrected/informed). If C.S.M. Hill did carry it with him it seems in pretty good Nick.

Hopefully someone will educate me.

Simon

[Stew]

How 'large' is the map do you have the dimensions of if as this might be helpful to determine what it's use would be, also do you have a photo you can post up of the map, i'm sure a few of us would love to see it .

[Martin Feledziak]

Simon

I would love to see a picture of your map.

I have added "Square K" - just a small section from a map which is described as

(1:20) 57D.NE, 16 May 1916.

I am unable to answer your specific question so I hope to learn from other contributors.

I would just like to know how your map compares with the below.

I have copied this map from the below

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=50.1339&lon=2.6468&layers=101465221

[mancpal]

I'll try to get dimensions of the map and will post them. I don't have a copy of the map and I'm not sure my camera would do it justice, any ideas on how to copy it welcome. From memory it's about 2' square. My brother in law keeps the map along with his Princess Mary tin (with majority of contents) and his own account of his service up to July '16. The account has a few interesting snippets and hopefully I'll be able to post it. Again from memory the map shows Hebuterne and Gommecourt in larger detail than the one above (less of the surrounding area).

Simon

[Stevie]

Trench maps usually came in two sizes, 1:10,000 and 1:20,000. Anything above this scale would not show the trenches and was just referred to as an AREA map.

For map reading purposes, each letter of the alphabet on the map corresponded to one block of 36 squares which ran six squares across and six squares down. Each of these squares was sub-divided into four smaller squares which were lettered 'a' and 'b' for the top two, and 'c' and 'd' for the bottom two.

If you refer to the image of the map shown - which shows 30 of the squares allocated to 'K', the map reference for Observation Wood in square 28 would be... K. 28. b. 3. 4. To translate this into plain English, this is worked out by looking at square 28 in the block covered by 'K'. You will notice the square is sub-divided by dotted lines into four smaller squares, the top right being square 'b'. Note that these sub-squares are not referred to in capital letters. Then we come to the numbers. The first number (3) represents three tenths of the sub-square from left edge of the square to the right. The second number (4) represents four tenths upwards from the bottom edge of the square.

Although it may sound confusing at first, it is very easy to work out the map references once you grasp the technique.

[CROONAERT]

Trench maps usually came in two sizes, 1:10,000 and 1:20,000. Anything above this scale would not show the trenches and was just referred to as an AREA map.

Sorry to be picky, but officially printed (British) trench maps also came in 1:2,500 ,1:5,000 and 1:25,000 scales too (though the two scales you mention are, indeed, the most commonly found). By 1917, 1:40,000 scale trench maps (which DID show trenches) also came into existence. 'True' trench maps in this scale became extremely common by the last few months of the war. The Germans printed trench maps up to 1:50,000 scale.

Dave.

[CROONAERT]

...By 1917, 1:40,000 scale trench maps (which DID show trenches) also came into existence. 'True' trench maps in this scale became extremely common by the last few months of the war...

Here's an example of one of these 1:40,000 scale trench maps from my collection...

[CROONAERT]

...with closer detail...

[CROONAERT]

...and detail from a German 1:50,000 scale trench map...

[Stevie]

The German one looks like one I sold just recently.

In my collection I have...

Sheet 57D First Edition... 1:40,000

Lens 11 Edition 2... 1:100,000

57B SW 1:20,000 Trench map Hindenburg Line, Le Catalet Neuroy Line

Sheet 28 Edition 8 1:40,000

Tournai 5 Edition 2 1:100,000

Hazebrouck 5A edition 2 1:100,000 With notations around Ypres

There is a 1:20,000 Ypres trench map and a few others in the collection too. My intention was just to point out the most used maps in 10,000 and 20,000. The largest scale I have ever had was a hand-drawn one of Oppy Wood.

[CROONAERT]

Ah... with hand-drawn, 'anything goes' really - 1:1,000 scale, 1:500 even!

I'd better not list my collection of trench maps (I don't actually collect non-trench maps unless they are officially printed with some other detail of interest such as base depots etc)... I'll just leave it at saying that there are 'quite a few' on the list!

Dave.

[Stevie]

I have one which has the final positions of the German army on November 11th 1918 drawn in - period done too. It came with three other maps, two protractors and map case - all to the same officer. Most of my maps are long gone. What I have listed is all that are left. I came to the conclusion that there were better things to have. There is a limit to how many you cane frame and hang on the wall! The sad thing is that just at the moment I could have done with some of the maps I had for the book I have been commissioned to do. Such is life!

[Martin Feledziak]

Simon,

Can you get the map, then spread it out on the floor and take a photo of it, like in post 7 above.

Do you think that it was John who made the notes on the map ?

We look forward to his service account up to that dreadful first day of July 1916 when so many were slaughtered.

and the DCM info.

Do not worry if you can't do the map photo.

I am enjoying this thread - maps are fascinating.

[mancpal]

Martin

The map is currently with my brother-in-law so it may be a while before I see it again,however I will photograph it as you suggest and hope my cheapo camera does it justice. I occasionally work for a digital printing firm who have the capability to print an excellent image however they can't scan the map due to its size. I'm told it can be done but for me would be prohibitively expensive.

The account was written after the war and is by no means a day by day diary. I'll dig it out and post it.If I remember correctly it has details of a rugby game (with shirts fashioned from sandbags and hobnails removed from boots). It also mentions a display for top brass of the new phenomena of tanks.

His DCM citation was a bit of a let down for me. Prior to the internet I spent hours in Manchester central library leafing through the Gazette to find in this case it isn't full of the superhuman efforts often associated with this award. I'm only pleased his award was gazetted in 1915 saving me from 3yrs of London Gazzette pages! I'll keep you in suspense until I dig it out! He was also mentioned in dispatches (twice I believe).

JB Hill survived the war and became an ARP warden in London during WW2, another dangerous occupation!

Simon

[steve hammond]

Hi Simon, apologies if you have already seen this but here's a photo of Jack from his obituary in the QW&CSR RMA newsletter dated October 1977,I am doing a lot of research into the QWR and would also love to see the map and his accounts, thank you,

all the best, Steve

[steve hammond]

Simon, Here's the small obituary for you too from the same newsletter,

Steve

[mancpal]

Steve

We do have a copy of his obituary but I'm glad you posted it as my brother in law keeps the family copy and its ages since I read it. His citation reads as follows:-

"For great devotion to duty and consistent good work during the whole period his battalion has been engaged"

It appears in the supplement to the London Gazette dated 30/06/15 and states his rank as corporal. His service number is stated as 2023 whereas I have him as 6133 and 6381. I wonder if the July mention relates to him being MiD which I believe happened twice.

Do you know if his battn war diaries are on the net and if so where. He's not my main topic of interest just yet but both my wife and I would love to know more.

I've just unearthed his account which I am about to start posting but I'll do it in sections as my typing finger gets tired quickly (I'm hopeless with computers). It runs to about 4 pages.(the account, not my finger!)

Simon

[mancpal]

C.S.M. J.B. HILL D.C.M. PERSONAL ACCOUNT 1914-16. PART 1 of 4

1914- To France on S.S. Maiden in company on the boat with the 1st Bttn Liverpool Scottish. Met them again on the road at night up to the early fighting in the Ypres Salient at Hooge. The Col. of the Scottish was badly hit and when being escorted out of the line he was met opposite me at a trench junction by the double V.C. son of the Bishop of Liverpool, one Dr Chavasse whose regimental aid post had been hit and who came up the line to see what he could do for the wounded, and dressed the Col. at that spot

It was obvious in seeing that gallant Dr that he was completely fearless and no surprise to me when he got two V.C.s before he was finally killed, and he probably earned a few more.

The Maiden survivors still hold an annual reunion, now down to 20/30 and have never missed since 1918.

Xmas 1914 - In trenches (first lot) in front of Erquining(?) South of Armentieres, very wet and muddy and the first cause of many casualties from trench foot. (Made an offence later on after we had special ointment to protect the feet, but lost us a lot of men early from the first trenches). The Germans on Xmas eve (about 200yds away) started the fun by putting lamps on the parapet after dark and singing carols and in the morning of Xmas Day some sat on the parapet on both sides and gradually ventured into no man's land until both sides were all together for talks and dealing with one or two bodies. I had quite a happy conversation with a London City clerk (Saxon) and we promised not to fire at each other on return to our own trenches. The H.Q. staff did not approve of course , of this affair and during the night transferred the Q.W.R. to Houpline, a suburb of Armentieres where we took over breastwork trenches on the right of the River Lys which overflowed due to rain and we had to hurriedly evacuate part of the line during the daylight - not very easy.

Later on, early in 1915 we used to swim, when out of the line, and one or two of us swam the river right through Armentieres. No costumes and the Roman Catholic padre complained to our Col. (the very gallant Col Schoolbred) that his ladies were being shocked, but the C.O. told him to control his flock. Armentieres was quite a pleasant town early in 1915, with cock-fighting in the grounds of the Estaminets on Sunday afternoons and quite a few bets on results. Some of the birds were grand fighters.

We played our first rugby early in 1915 against the L.R.B., but I don't remember who won. We wore sandbags for jerseys with cutouts for head and arms, khaki cut down trousers for shorts and army boots with the ironwork removed and replaced by leather bars. The Mayor and town band attended and the French people were good supporters. As a result of this first game we did play a number of later games when we were out of the line and had the opportunity.

We had April of 1915 to Jan 1916 in the Ypres Salient and not to good at times from shelling, after the first gas attack which was not a bit funny. I remember during the 2nd gas attack in December 1915 seeing an old soldier wearing a PH or PHG helmet with a hole cut in the side to get his pipe through and as the gas was feeble it did not do him any harm.

[mancpal]

C.S.M. J.B. HILL D.C.M. PERSONAL ACCOUNT 1914-16. Part 2 of 4

1915 - Our original arrival in Ypres at the time of the gas attack was a bit hair raising as the town was almost completely on fire and the only way through was between the houses burning on each side and past the cloth hall through the square being shelled by 18" hows. Past the Menin Gate and a dreadful smell from the cemetery churned up by shell fire. We then advanced until we reached a front opposite the Jerries, with the chloride fumes from every shell hole. Somebody at home did a first class job in getting the first gas masks almost at once which consisted of engine room TOW in gauze which one wrapped round nose and mouth and a NIP bottle (like coca-cola) with some chemical deterrent to be sprinkled on the TOW but after lots of gas alarms (usually untrue) the liquid was exhausted and the suggested alternative was not productive. So went 1915 with I'm afraid lots of losses from shells and a number of losses from various scraps.

Bombs- This started in Jan 1915 with an RE production of the jam tin type first known as the "waterlily", the latter being an old jam tin with bits of broken iron from pans any kettles round the bottom half of the of the can with a gun cotton primer in the centre and a fulmanite of mercury detonator in the centre. This was retained in the can by cutting the top half of the can into strips and folding these over the bottom. The addition of a 3" safety fuse which one lit with a match or French lighter and the fuse burned for 5 seconds before explosion. To prevent these being thrown back before it burst we trained the chaps to count 1000,1001,1002,1003 and then throw (some counted rather fast). This was quite a safe thing to do but accidents when the mills bomb came along the fuse time was a bit shorter, and the counting scheme was dropped. We also suffered from lots of new types after the pucka jam tin type carried in a belt round the middle with bomb pockets which made it very difficult for a bomber to get them out of the belt in a hurry. Then we had the percussion types no.1 something like the German type with three linen streamers to keep them in flight and they burst on impact - quite a good type. Then the rifle grenade - fired through the rifle barrel, okay when they operated properly but the mechanism was not so good and had a brass collar supposed to be set back by the shock of the discharge (the grenade was fired from the rifle by a dummy round) and this released a wind vane which was supposed to wind down during flight so to free the striker. We found that the brass collar did not operate most times so that the striker could not function so we used to push it down by hand before firing and make sure the wind vane was free and then fire and this was usually okay, but we got one or two explosions at the muzzle, not so funny and the rifle grenade had a short life until replaced by the stokes mortars.

Another very bad bomb effort by the experts was a new percussion type issued for use the night before a scrap at Hooge in June 1915, similar to the jam tin type but an alleged better design, and we had to cut and fit the fuse wire just before zero hour and then found that the fuse was oversized and in order to get it into a detonator I had to strip the outer fuse covering, and this made the gutta pensia(?) Too sticky to go in until we managed with rifle oil, and as far as I remember the bombs were a washout as I never saw any after that scrap. The Mills came along about that time and I believe it was used right through the Second World War and was a first class job for clearing dugouts etc. We at first, let the spring lever fly off, which released a striker to start the fuse, but due to a few accidents this was forbidden. It was most effective rolled into a group of the other side or into a dugout

[steve hammond]

Excellent stuff to have Simon, thanks for showing it, the war diary is available but I have it too if you just wanted certain dates, I'd be happy to email them to you if it helps, just drop me a PM & I'll sort it for you, all the best,

Steve

[Andrew Upton]

...and this made the gutta pensia(?) Too sticky to go in until we managed with rifle oil...

Gutta percha - a form of natural rubber:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutta-percha

[mancpal]

Andrew,

Thanks for the "translation". My wife transcribed this account from the original and I believe did a fine job. It's always difficult to read old text let alone deal with words/phrases that were never heard before. Hope you enjoyed J.B.s account so far. One page to go, wish he'd written more.

Simon

[mancpal]

C.S.M. J.B. HILL D.C.M. PERSONAL ACCOUNT 1914-16. Part 3 of 4

At the end of 1915 in the salient life was pretty hectic, 4 days in the front line or advance posts, 4 days in support line, 4 days on canal bank in Ypres, and then 4 days in Poperinge for a rest (usually with working parties at night digging or wiring but a good change). During this 16 day period the Jerries made life unpleasant by regular shelling by 5.9 how's, which was a most unpleasant affair and we generally lost about 50, some killed and others wounded, plus the front line whizz bangs (A very high type of explosive shell designed to blow in the parapets and do lots of damage). The Prince of Wales (later King who abdicated and who worse still was the Hon. Colonel of the Q.W.R.) visited the front line and was a grand chap with plenty of GUTS and a great pity he gave up the throne. He was also at the Somme later.

1916 - In January 1916 all the original 1st Battalions of the T.A. who had been in France since 14 and early 15 were removed from the old regular army divisions to form the new 56th Division of London Regiments and I know they did a good job to the end of the war. After the usual periods in trenches and rest we did a dummy attack to demonstrate the first tanks to the H.Q. staff and two of them went through our line into a small wood followed by the Commander in Chief, and all the top brass including POW (Prince of Wales). They pushed down the small trees in the copse making a flat pathway and the staff followed into the wood and when the tanks moved off the top of the trees they sprang back throwing the staff all over to the merriment of the troops. It was obvious to some of us then that these first tanks were much to slow and unwieldy to be much good and this proved to be true when we did the first attack on Sept. 15. We had two tanks attached to our attack, one broke down on the Arras-Cambrai Rd and took no part and the other managed to get across the German front line and then the track snapped but it did do a bit of damage with the M.G. Months later the small Whippet type tanks were much more effective and gave the infantry great support.

We had a great Brigade sports meeting in May 15 and I am glad to remember that the Q.W.R. came up tops against the L.R.B., Q.V.R., Kensington, and other units.

[Martin Feledziak]

Simon -

lots of very interesting facts - and a nice account of another Christmas Eve "Truce". There has been much debate around if these meetings actually took place.

So Jack adds another snip of evidence.

Since we are talking maps - I just add this one which shows Erquinghem - Lys in the bottom left corner - this is from 1918 so much more extensive trench networks.

[nigelfe]

My understanding is that maps overprinted to show allied trenches (in red) were not allowed in the forward area for obvious security reasons.

1:40,000 was a standard scale from early in the war, it was also used by the longer range RGA batteries. Most other batteries use 1:20,000.