mcfc1923 Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Just wondered if a soldier was buried in a certain cemetary, does this mean he fought in a specific battle. It's just that I have a medal to a soldier who was kia and buried at Carnoy cemetary, and i'm off on my first trp to the Somme so as well as paying my respects i would like to also find out if he was involved in a certain battle. Regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Jim, Cemetery + date of death + location of Bn at that time can be the start of the story. Provide some more details of your man and we shall see. Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Jim, I cannot speak for Carnoy and the Somme area, but in many (most ?) Ypres Salient cemeteries, this would not work. (I mean : the cemetery would hardly be an indication as to where the man fell.) In the Salient some small cemeteries indeed are battlefield cemeteries (like Dragoon Camp Cemetery, in Boezinge, my village). Other larger cemeeries started as a battlefield cemetery, or a cemetery close to where the battlefield was, but after the Armistice were enlarged with hundreds of men from smaller cemeteries that were removed, nearby, but also from far away. (Like Artillery Wood Cemetery, Boezinge : originally 141, later + over 1,150 ; and a better known example : Tyne Cot Cemetery, originally 300 or so (?), near the Cross of Sacrifice, later enlarged + 11,500). Sometimes the cemeteries (or some of them) from which these remains came ware mentioned in the records. (CWGC, or M. Scott, the Ypres Salient.) The number of the Plot (I) or the plot where the headstones are not really arranged may be an indication that this is the original plot. But again : this is for the Ypres Salient. No idea how it is in the Somme area, and to what extent these cemeteries are concentration cemeteries or battlefield cemeteries. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Jim Looking at the CWGC website, it doesnt mention that Carnoy was a concentration cemetery, so it will be a reasonable assumption that your man will have fought in the fairly immediate vicinity. Is he a Manchester? Quite a few in there, from memory. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 According to Martin Middlebrook, Carnoy was used as a comrades cemetery from August 1915 until July 1916 and was then used by medical units until 1917. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 7 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Jim, Cemetery + date of death + location of Bn at that time can be the start of the story. Provide some more details of your man and we shall see. Regards, Marco I have a fair bit of information thanks to the help of harribobs, and info that came with the medal, but i would like to try and find out the most likely place he was killed. He was a cpl who served with the 21st service battalion manchester regiment, and was kia while a member of D company No. XIV Platoon on the 1/7/1916 corporal Thomas Cook, 19358, man reg Thanks pals jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Jim Smack bang on the plot! 21st Mancs were attacking Mametz. Good description in Stedman's book "Manchester Pals" (just republished). I suspect Carnoy and Danzig Alley Cemeteries will have most of the burials. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Jim. You can see D Coy of the 21/Manchester's positions and progress throughout July 1st on this map extract from the OH. You should be able to pinpoint what you're looking for pretty accurately from this.... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harribobs Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Dave where does Carnoy lie in relation to the fighting at mametz? chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Dave where does Carnoy lie in relation to the fighting at mametz? chris Behind the lines in a different divisional sector.... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Jim. The next 3 posts cover what the "sort of" Battalion History for the 21/Mancs says for 1st July... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 ...2... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 ...and 3... (I presume you've got M.Stedman's account from his "Manchester Pals" book?) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 While we're at it, let's chuck in a trench-map fragment for around the date you're looking for!..... Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 9 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Cheers pals, info and maps are excellent, not had time to digest everything as yet, but it appears there are 2 or 3 more than likely places where he was killed. The ones that stand out, bearing in mind this is after only a quick look at info and maps would be when B C AND D companies moved up from their original positions in Queens road and London road west, and went into the front line trenches vacated by the south staffs, or Danzig alley is another one. Going to have a real good look at the info provided and see if i can come up with a good educated guess as to wher he was when kia. Would the fact that he was a cpl suggest that whatever D company did on that day, he would have been in the thick of it?, of course they were all in the thick of it, but just trying to get an idea of what orders a cpl would have been given etc, would i be correct in saying that a cpl would have been in charge of about 15 men?. I would be more than interested in any pals educated guess as to the most likely place he was when killed. also, did the relatives have a choice as to wher their beloved was buried, France or Britain. cheers pals much appreciated Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 9 November , 2004 Share Posted 9 November , 2004 Jim First the easy one - there was no choice about place of burial. It really is all but impossible to speculate where your man might have actually been killed. It could be anywhere along the route - he might not even have got out of the trench (not idle speculation - many of those who advanced furthest will be amongst the unknown - those who died in the trench or near to it were easist to recover and identify.). The above account does mention three occasions when the Company particularly took casualties - pays yer money, takes yer choice. I think there's one of the little Battleground Europe books to this sector which, if there is, I heartily recommend you get before your trip. The one I have for Montauban was invaluable ion my first visit John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 11 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2004 Jim First the easy one - there was no choice about place of burial. It really is all but impossible to speculate where your man might have actually been killed. It could be anywhere along the route - he might not even have got out of the trench (not idle speculation - many of those who advanced furthest will be amongst the unknown - those who died in the trench or near to it were easist to recover and identify.). The above account does mention three occasions when the Company particularly took casualties - pays yer money, takes yer choice. I think there's one of the little Battleground Europe books to this sector which, if there is, I heartily recommend you get before your trip. The one I have for Montauban was invaluable ion my first visit John Many thanks John, it's made it all a lot more clearer now, and will take your adivce RE battlefield Europe books. many thanks John and all the pals who have enlightened me. much appreciated and it's certainly given me an interest in trench maps. regards Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 November , 2004 Share Posted 12 November , 2004 much appreciated and it's certainly given me an interest in trench maps. Wanna buy some, Jim? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 12 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2004 money is a bit tight at the moment, that's why i'm trying to sell some of my own stuff, but i don't suppose there is any harm in asking what maps you have and how much you would selling for. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 November , 2004 Share Posted 12 November , 2004 money is a bit tight at the moment, that's why i'm trying to sell some of my own stuff, but i don't suppose there is any harm in asking what maps you have and how much you would selling for. Jim I was only joking Jim!!! Dave. (PS. but if you want the full collection as a job lot (and I'll have to check first with a mate of mine who's the "co-owner" of the collection) I'll let you have it for £9500 - and , believe me, that's a bargain these days (probably about £1500 less than "market value") !!!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 12 November , 2004 Share Posted 12 November , 2004 (PS. but if you want the full collection as a job lot (and I'll have to check first with a mate of mine who's the "co-owner" of the collection) I'll let you have it for £9500 - and , believe me, that's a bargain these days (probably about £1500 less than "market value") !!!!). If you've really developed an interest in trench maps though, you might find it cheaper to invest in the "IWM Trenchmap Archive" CD-ROM published by the N&MP. Many of mine are on this CD (which is a godsend for me as it saves wear and tear on the originals when I want to scan sections for whatever reason), but it doesn't have any of my "true loves" - the 1:20,000 scalers ! dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 13 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2004 money is a bit tight at the moment, that's why i'm trying to sell some of my own stuff, but i don't suppose there is any harm in asking what maps you have and how much you would selling for. Jim I was only joking Jim!!! Dave. (PS. but if you want the full collection as a job lot (and I'll have to check first with a mate of mine who's the "co-owner" of the collection) I'll let you have it for £9500 - and , believe me, that's a bargain these days (probably about £1500 less than "market value") !!!!). ONLY JOKING!!!!!, well i had better tear this cheque up then. £9500 ?, well slap my thigh and call me brenda, in the name of cliff richard has the world gone mad?, (i dare not ask how much the CD would cost) DAVE DAVE DAVE!!!!!, For that amount of money you need only have asked me and i would have mapped the lot out for you in my own blood, infact i would have thrown in a couple of pints of blood for free and an A TO Z of Manchester(sometimes my generosity knows no bounds) so i suppose a straight swop for Blackadder goes forth is out of the question? (now don't be to quick in coming to a decision, were talking double video, a job lot) that must be one hell of a map Dave nice one Dave Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul guthrie Posted 13 November , 2004 Share Posted 13 November , 2004 Isn't the cemetery named Dantzig Alley instead of Danzig? If so how did that happen? In Carnoy is Percy, oh heck Percy kick the football, darn I know that, oh well I'll think of it soon as I start the walk home from downtown & farmers market . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Cooper Posted 16 November , 2004 Share Posted 16 November , 2004 Isn't the cemetery named Dantzig Alley instead of Danzig? If so how did that happen? Presumably because it's a phonetic spelling - in German you pronounce "Danzig" as if there is a "t" in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcfc1923 Posted 16 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2004 Well that's that one solved, nice one Nick. jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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