Looking for information on a Connaught Ranger Mutiny Man

[BrendanLee]

Researching a man involved in the Connaught Rangers mutiny. Simon Connell, he served was tried and convicted under the name James Connell. He was born in November 1900. In his application to the Irish Government for a pension he states his date of enlistment was 3^rd of June 1915, he used his older brother’s name and details to enlist under age. In his discharge papers his date of enlistment is given as 19^th of February 1919 and he enlisted at Natoye. I have found a MIC for a James Connell 6070 Connaught Rangers but have no way of knowing if this is the same James Connell.

Is there any way of finding out if he did serve from June 1915. The only Natoye I can find is in Belgium, is it possible he was discharged in Belgium and re-joined giving him the February enlistment date on his discharge papers.

[archangel9]

The 2nd Bn. Connaught Rangers (5th Bn. redesignated 2nd on 8th February 1919) moved to Natoye on 16th February 1919 and remained there until early May when they returned to the UK. Possible then that he did as you suggest.

John

[Simon_Fielding]

Medal Roll:

Name: James Connell

Military Year: 1914-1920

Rank: Private

Medal Awarded: British War Medal and Victory Medal

Regiment or Corps: Royal Munster Fusiliers

Regimental Number: G/1668

Previous Units: 5/Conn. Rang. Pte. 6070, 1/G.B. R. Muns. Fus. G/1668

Class Z AR 2/6/19

Hope that helps....

[Simon_Fielding]

This interesting website http://www.irishmedals.org/connaught-rangers-mutiny.htmlsuggests his service number was 35109

There seems to be an MIC but an unusual format:

[Simon_Fielding]

Residents of a house 70 in Finglas Town (Finglas, Dublin)

Show all information

Surname Forename Age Sex Relation to head Religion

Connell Margaret 38 Female Head of Family Roman Catholic

Connell James 15 Male Son Roman Catholic

Connell Simon 10 Male Son Roman Catholic

[BrendanLee]

Thanks for the information, the number on the MIC 35109 matches that given by him on his Irish pension application. He returned to Ireland after release from prison and served with the Free State Army. He got a grant from the Irish Government under the Connaught Rangers compensation scheme in 1937, he was living in Manchester at this time, he also applied for a disability pension but in 1940 when the Irish Government requested he attend a medical in Dublin his solicitor in Manchester was unable to find him.

[Simon_Fielding]

Glad to help. I wonder if there are any other facts to be gleaned from his RDF number?

[jdoyle]

the family in 1901 census

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Finglas/Finglas/1272798/

The pension records have his DoB as 25th Dec 1900

In his statement he gives his age at last birthday as 34 and gives date of last birthday as 25th Dec 1934

The Irish pension application documents are online at

http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/docs/files//PDF_Pensions/ConRan/WCONRAN188SIMONCONNELL.pdf

Seem to suggest that he enlisted under his own name first, then his brothers, then his own. Brother appears to have died shortly after returning to Ireland.

Parents marriage possibly

Name: Simon Connell Marriage Date: 1 Nov 1894 Marriage Place: Finglas or St Margaret, Dublin, Ireland Other Parish Name: Canice's Father: James Connell Mother: Bigid Flood Spouse: Margt Emmett Spouse Father: Peter Emmett Spouse Mother:

Jane Neille

[axial1680]

jdoyle,

You have certainly been doing your homework and have the correct family!! Simon was my great uncle, although my father had never spoken of him. James his brother (my grandfather) served in the Royal Munster Fusiliers from Sept 1914, he later transferred to the RASC in 1918, due to malaria and bad acne which made him unable to carry a pack. He left the British army in February 1919. He joined the Irish Free State Army in Jaunary 1923 and died of TB in May 1923. I think he may have been involved with the IRA during the independence war but there is nothing to prove this. I find it amazing two men we knew nothing about really, have come to life by finding various service and pension records. I still can't find what happened to Simon, he didn't die in the UK as far as I can tell and didn't die in Ireland before 1958, I'm currently searching between 1958 and 1968 for him. He certainly had a lot of needless paperwork to do for his pension, as other Irish army records prove he was one of the Mutineers. I have no photographs of either but keep trawling through google incase one crops up!

Paul.

[axial1680]

Following on from this, I managed to get Simon's service record from the MOD. He joined both the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and Connaught Rangers under age and under false names. One was Patrick Emmett a cousin of his mother, on this mic it says deserter, even though he was hauled out for being under age. On the other parts of the records it says fraudulent service and no pension to be awarded for these dates. He was posted to France in summer 1918. He never got any medals at all because of this under age job, regardless of the later mutiny. Do the MOD look at some of these cases now, like the men shot at dawn?

Oh I did find a photo of grandfather!

Thanks,

Paul

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, axial1680 said:

Following on from this, I managed to get Simon's service record from the MOD. He joined both the Royal Dublin Fusiliers and Connaught Rangers under age and under false names. One was Patrick Emmett a cousin of his mother, on this mic it says deserter, even though he was hauled out for being under age. On the other parts of the records it says fraudulent service and no pension to be awarded for these dates. He was posted to France in summer 1918. He never got any medals at all because of this under age job, regardless of the later mutiny. Do the MOD look at some of these cases now, like the men shot at dawn?

Oh I did find a photo of grandfather!

Thanks,

Paul

I doubt they will - the SAD cases were a very specific situation.

 

Craig

[axial1680]

Thanks Craig!

[archangel9]

On 11/13/2016 at 11:53, axial1680 said:

He was posted to France in summer 1918. He never got any medals at all because of this under age job, regardless of the later mutiny.

He should have got medals as far as I know, regardless of the underage enlistment. He was posted to France in summer 1918 so was entitled to BW and Victory medals. These would then have been forfeit because of his involvement in the mutiny.

John

[axial1680]

The mutiny was 1920 so he should have got his medals before, heres his index cards and service record. He first joined under age in his own name I think, then his mothers cousins name, Patrick Emmett, then in his brother, my grandfathers name. All confusing!

Paul

[archangel9]

Could it be the case that he deserted from the RDF before he was discharged as underage. If he had been discharged he would have been entitled to the medals, as a deserter he was not.

 

The other convicted mutineers who had medals from the Great War, including a MM winner, all forfeited their medals. 

[axial1680]

From what I can gather the desertion under the name Patrick Emmett was classed as a technical desertion, it states fraudulent enlistment and no service pension. Even if the medals were forfeited, they could have been at home in Ireland and never returned. I just think he should have had some because of his service in France as James Connell in 1918. His brother my grandfather, got the Pip Squeak and Wilfred, he was in the Royal Munsters at Gallipoli and Salonika. No one has any recollection of the medals, but he died of TB in 1923 and I think they would have been sold or lost round that era. I keep looking though!

[HolymoleyRE]

Good morning GWF.

 

Royal Dublin Fusiliers Pte P Emmett #30747 Deserter?

&

Connaught Rangers Pte James Connell 4/6845 (35109)

 

This one has been on here before, but I have been speaking with the family and have a few clues that might explain the desertion, in hope by the family to help clear the record on this act (at the very least for their own peace of mind).....

 

Sorry bit this is a bit war & peace, but wanted to write the theory down before I forget, so please bear with!

 

An underage Simon Connell from Finglas, Dublin, seeks to follow his brother James (already in the 6th RMF) to the war. After one foiled attempt by his mother he manages to attest into the Army under a cousin's name Patrick Emmett and given the number 30747. Comparing similar numbers, a couple of men enlist in 1915, but other reckonable service/enlistment dates start Aug/Sept 1917...Derby Scheme?

 

So my belief he signs up in June 1915 and finally enlists in Aug/Sept 1917, completed his training and is mobilised to the front (my estimate is it would be Jan 1918) his medal roll entry shows he was with the 8/9th RDF, the 8/9th WD for Jan 18 shows they had very high sick casualties, and sure enough they receive a draft of men from Base on the 17th Jan 1918, just over a month later there is an enquiry at RDF HQ in Dublin as to Patrick's (Simon) underage enlistment based off evidence presented by the Mother....the timing of this is key in two aspects...Firstly if he had enlisted in 1915...why would the mother wait until 1918 to bubble him, she had already done it once!

 

Secondly, the next coinciding impact of the enquiry is the actions followed by Patrick. The results of the enquiry arrive at the front about a month later allowing time for the signal to get there? Patrick is found and sent home to Dublin to face discharge arriving in Scotland in April before the next leg to Ireland....he makes a run for it (he is not under military arrest).

 

The Medal Roll posts him as a Deserter from the 27th April 1918....Under his brothers James Connell's ID he enlists into the Connaught Rangers on the 29th April 1918 in Edinburgh...completes Infantry training again...and I would expect to see a mobilisation to the front date if Sept 1918...sure enough 11th Sept 1918 he is in France with the 5th Btn...!

 

In Feb 1919 history catches up with him (by now the War has ended and he is 18) and he faces "technical" desertion charges from the RDF...His CR records show no penal service and James (Simon) soldiers on discharging from war service into the 1st Btn CR as a post war regular....he is then involved  the June 1920 Solon Indian Mutiny and the rest is history.

 

Please feel to test my theory, as that all it can be but to me it seems very plausible, yes it odd that he was classed as deserter when it looks like he would have discharged anyway for being underage...but I guess that KRs and Military Law for you????

 

The other odd thing is Simon has no MIC or Medal Roll from the CRs as they appear to gave processed their men in May 1920, before the Mutiny...he does have a RDF one as Patrick, there is also a MIC to link the two Aliases together...which may explain the no CR record.

 

As we can perhaps see he was never a true Deserter, which to many indicates cowardice, not once did he try to escape the war, just his mother.....Yes he was a mutineer in India  but was following his beliefs as an Irishman of that time.

 

Thoughts welcome!

 

Andy

 

Edited 6 August , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[HolymoleyRE]

17 minutes ago, archangel9 said:

Sounds plausible alright. Link to previous thread - 

 

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/topic/224649-looking-for-information-on-a-connaught-ranger-mutiny-man/#comment-2228396

 

He seems very unlucky not to have received medals but then they would have been forfeit on conviction for mutiny if he had. 

 

John

Cheers John, 

 

Fate always deals a strange hand, if he had gone through with the underage discharge, he would have received his medals as Patrick Emmett, he could then have been re-enlisted in Nov 1918 once 18 and gone down a very different path!

[zzlapwing1]

I'm guessing the author of these posts will know about this grave memorial in St Andrews church Jesmond (Newcastle Upon Tyne), but just in case I'll attach a photo. Was walking around the cemetery and was intrigued by the story.

[Mickster]

Fascinating story.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I'm guessing this is the registration of his death?

Where did the  O'   come from?

Deaths Dec 1957   (>99%)
O'CONNELL	Simon P	57	Newcastle T.	1b	183

[Mickster]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I'm guessing this is the registration of his death?

Where did the  O'   come from?

Deaths Dec 1957   (>99%)
O'CONNELL	Simon P	57	Newcastle T.	1b	183

It happens all the time Dai. Folks that leave their homeland become very aware of their roots.  In the USA the Irish Americans add the 'O' to surnames that were never even intended to have one. O'Jones for instance. Nowadays they translate their name into Gaelic. In the Irish instance.

Mickster

[corisande]

7 hours ago, Mickster said:

In the USA the Irish Americans add the 'O' to surnames that were never even intended to have one. O'Jones for instance. Nowadays they translate their name into Gaelic. In the Irish instance.

 That is very true, but in addition there was a movement in 1901 and 1911 censuses to "de-Irish" names . I am not sure if it was county or national officials

I came across a strange example on doing my own family's genealogy , where all families in County Donegal named "Granny" in 1901 census , became "Grant" in 1911 census - write up here. And that is true also of many families where the census dropped the "O"

And as Mickster says some/many change their name today to the Gaelic. Like O'Rorke to  Ó Ruairc

It adds to the challenge of researching Irish History

As for Irish Americans , someone once said that African Americans have more in common  with Africa than  the Irish Americans have with Ireland (sorry I cannot get the originator)

[Mickster]

2 hours ago, corisande said:

 That is very true, but in addition there was a movement in 1901 and 1911 censuses to "de-Irish" names . I am not sure if it was county or national officials

I came across a strange example on doing my own family's genealogy , where all families in County Donegal named "Granny" in 1901 census , became "Grant" in 1911 census - write up here. And that is true also of many families where the census dropped the "O"

And as Mickster says some/many change their name today to the Gaelic. Like O'Rorke to  Ó Ruairc

It adds to the challenge of researching Irish History

As for Irish Americans , someone once said that African Americans have more in common  with Africa than  the Irish Americans have with Ireland (sorry I cannot get the originator)

Yes Corisande. They dropped the 'O's and the Mc's to fit in when race hatred was strong. to get acceptance ,,a bit like the British royalty dropping their German names.

Mickster