SMLE Cartridge Strippers (for a start)!

[notimetoulouse]

Hi everyone, as an ex career soldier, the boyhood conversations I had with my grandfather about his 1916-18 service with 2/5 Lancashire Fusiliers (GSW face on the morning of 3rd Ypres) continue to perplex me after all these years, so today it's 'bit between the teeth time' and an attempt to clear some of them up.

I am not a forum animal, so please bear with me if I offend protocol in any way.

If anyone can help with answers, it would be greatly appreciated.

Here we go...

1. He mentioned one of his company officers being a stickler for insisting that the his area of trench be 'policed' meticulously, with all used tins and metal detritus carefully sandbagged and taken out to the rear each night. Would this have included spent cartridge cases? Were they salvaged? And going back to the food tins, does that mean they cooked in the front line?

2. Night Sentries, apparently, when they took over their position always had a full bandolier of rounds laid out to the right or left in case they saw movement/were raided. As someone used to loading 7.62 rounds from a clip, did a bandolier of .303 contain loose rounds that had to be pushed into a stripper prior to loading, or did they come on a stripper 'ready to load' straight into the magazine? If it was the former, were cartridge strippers a piece of issued kit?

3. He was disciplined at company level for 'failure to maintain the cleanliness of the platoon bomb receptacles". Would these have been (simplistically) buckets containing Mills bombs, or something more significant?

And finally, whilst recovering from his wound at home just prior to returning to France, he spoke of meeting his best friend getting off a tram in front of him (having come straight from France on his first ever leave), with his uniform and rifle still plastered with mud. Did they bring their weapons home on leave with them? How did that work safety and storage wise?

I hope I've posted these questions in the right place!

Sorry to have banged on, I'll get my coat.

Hope you can help.

[bigjohn]

Ref to the bandoliers they came with 50 rounds of ammunition , in chargers of five rounds , two to a section of the pouch.

For food time think compo, and don't forget recycling is not a modern idea, my Dad always referred to it as salvage.

John

[notimetoulouse]

Thanks John, greatly appreciated. I'd got 100 rounds firmly locked in for some reason... at least that's straightened out for me.

[Ogilwy]

As both a soldier and SMLE owner / shooter, the 5 Round clips are a great piece of kit and work exceptionally well in cutting down the reloading time. They also keep the ammunition together in an easily managable and accountable way that allows a simple method of issuing a set ammount of ammunition rapidly. Still in use 100 years on gives some idea how effective they are seen to be!

In addition as an archaeologist who digs on the battlefields I have encountered the clean up of the trenches having occurred. On a couple of occasions now we have found sandbags of fired brass where the troops have 'policed' up their area and as with modern times used a sandbag to collect the scrap.

Nothing changes, troops that have nothing to do will get into trouble, that is a fact of life, so the maintainence of the trench and cleanliness is a simple solution to keep them occupied during lulls in the fighting.

Rod

[Beerhunter]

British ammunition intended for use in the field was indeed supplied in fifty round bandoliers. However that is not the whole story. Ammunition intended for training was supplied in packets or cartons. This was still the case in my day. (Second World war vintage .303 at school in the 50s/60s and later 7.62mm in the 70s/80s.) Although at school, we got what were given. Sometimes the .303 came in cartons and other times in bandoliers.

[MikB]

When 303 Mk.VII was issued in 50 round bandoliers, the cartridges were indeed in 5-round chargers - 2 per pocket - but (in 1950s manufactured cases at least) not set up in the recommended '3 down - 2 up' rim overlap profile for reliable feeding. Presumably soldiers knowing they were going into action would spend a few minutes setting these up for themselves if they had the opportunity?

Regards,

MikB

[Beerhunter]

From my experience, that is exactly the case MikeB. The rounds were in the chargers but one had to set them up thee-up-two-down. (The up being towards one looking at the base of the charger.) On the range we would be issued our ammunition and, if it was in chargers, it was the shooter's responsibility to set them up correctly. (They never were.) Even if one had set the chargers up, one often took a quick look before loading - I still do..

[steve10]

Hi Gents

Could someone just clarify for me, are chargers clips and strippers all the same item? Searching on the web returns rather differing results!

[N White]

Mostly yes.

A Brit will call it a charger, an American a stripper clip.

But, many call magazines "clips" too.

Stripper clip not to be confused with enbloc clip, which is why the British nomenclature makes the most sense, a charger holds rounds until stripped into the magazine, while a clip holds rounds and is inserted into the magazine, like a Mannlicher. A magazine, of course, regardless of being fed by charger, or clip, holds and dispenses the rounds into the action of the gun.

Edit to add, since a picture is 1000 words and all, chargers to the left, clips in the middle, magazines to the right. All of which have been called clips at some point.

[MikB]

The rounds were in the chargers but one had to set them up thee-up-two-down. (The up being towards one looking at the base of the charger.)

We said it t'other way about, but we meant pointy-end-up so it amounted to the same thing.

Regards,

MikB

[steve10]

Much appreciated N White

Steve

[tocemma]

I was taught DUDUD Three down, two up... I did a photo for another forum member some time ago, not very good taken with a phone camera, but you get the idea

Regards

Tocemma

[tocemma]

[shippingsteel]

And not all the ammunition of the period came conveniently packaged in chargers or bandoliers containing full chargers. (I'm talking British/Colonial here)

Particularly during the early stages of the war, the .303 ammunition came in large crates containing cardboard boxes. As shown in the photograph below.

These brown cardboard boxes (of 20 rounds) contained loaded chargers or even loose rounds. These loose rounds then needed to be put into chargers.

Cheers, S>S

[Radlad]

If a rifle was personal issue, yes, they sometimes took it home with them unless there was a convenient barracks where they could leave it safe. Many brought ammunition with them as well but it was usual to try to minimise the load one had to carry. a similar situation existed during WWII as well. The rifleman was responsible for the issued rifle, so they usually looked after them.

Officers pistols were their own personal property and it was up to them whether the carried them on leave or not.

[Ogilwy]

Wow, great! The issue of ammunition and it's turnover! It's just like work!

BH, you're quite right Bandolier is normally reserved as Operational Stock (modern term) where Ball Carton (cardboard box) is normally training stock. However if Bandolier ammunition is discovered to be below the required standard but safe to fire or is approaching it's shelf life expiry then it will become Training Only. Likewise if ammunition is in short supply then it will be issued in Carton. As S>S's picture shows the MkVII there is in charger in carton (normally 20's) so the refilling of pouches is not a problem, likewise with bandolier is the need arises.

Judging by the ammount of MkVII and No5 Grenades that we get called to at least 50% of all the ammunition issued was brought home and stored in a secure attic location, (probably for a rainy day)!

Rod

[Ogilwy]

Oh, By the way, one of my first jobs as a baby Corporal Ammo Tech was the breakdown of Vickers Belts and the re-manufacture of the ammunition into Chargers for issue to Cadet Units. I can guarantee you the Up and down did not come into it after the first couple of hours doing that job that lasted several weeks!

Halcyon days!

Rod

[4thGordons]

Can anyone tell me why .303 would have been packed in 32 round cartons?

A large amount of the .303 ammunition I shot in the 1990s was P.O.F. (Pakistan Ordnance Factory) of 1960s/70s vintage and came in 32 round cartons it has always puzzled me -- why 32?

Chris

[Ogilwy]

Chris,

No Idea it is not even a Bren Mag as that was 30! Thinking back the final .303in that the MOD bought was the Greek manufactured stuff and that came in 32's in Carton as well! The thing is with a COTS purchase like those for the .303 that we purchased as long as it's performance matched the requirements we would not look to changing the quantity packed as that would cost extra and why bother. Operational ammunition yes but Cadet training not a chance.

Rod

[Beerhunter]

Can anyone tell me why .303 would have been packed in 32 round cartons?

Yes.and the answer is very simple. The tin-plate inner boxes that .303 was packed in were designed to take 300 rounds (IIRC) in bandoliers (BDR), or 288 rounds in 32 round cartons (CTN), or 250 rounds belted (BLT). The above number are from years back and so may not be 100% but the idea is one box filled with what ever fits.

BTW, I saw the Bren magazine as an answer on an Amrican web site a few years back but that doesn't pass even a moment of thought because the Bren's magazines were filled from the riflemen of a sections supply.

[MikB]

Can anyone tell me why .303 would have been packed in 32 round cartons?

Well, it certainly has a history of being so. The first ammunition I shot in my SMLE was 1943 South African, and the last was 1945 RG and GB, and they came in 32-round cartons. Certain truths are merely there to be accepted, and not questioned by the likes of us

Regards,

MikB

[303man]

Chris,

No Idea it is not even a Bren Mag as that was 30! Thinking back the final .303in that the MOD bought was the Greek manufactured stuff and that came in 32's in Carton as well! The thing is with a COTS purchase like those for the .303 that we purchased as long as it's performance matched the requirements we would not look to changing the quantity packed as that would cost extra and why bother. Operational ammunition yes but Cadet training not a chance.

Rod

HXP I have came in 48 round boxes 1248 rds in a case

[tocemma]

In any case some Bren mags were stamped in red '28rds only' Many WW2 veterans have told me never put 30rds in a Bren mag. I've had the bottom plate of the mag ping off even with 28rds. Very embarrassing on a range demo.

Regards

Tocemma

[Beerhunter]

In any case some Bren mags were stamped in red '28rds only' Many WW2 veterans have told me never put 30rds in a Bren mag. I've had the bottom plate of the mag ping off even with 28rds. Very embarrassing on a range demo.

Regards

Tocemma

Bren magazines were ALWAYS filled with only 28 rounds. This was drummed into one and, in turn, one drummed it into others.

BTW, your magazine was faulty or incorrectly reassembled. I used Brens, both in .303 and 7.62, for donkeys and never came across that.

[Radlad]

In any case some Bren mags were stamped in red '28rds only' Many WW2 veterans have told me never put 30rds in a Bren mag. I've had the bottom plate of the mag ping off even with 28rds. Very embarrassing on a range demo.

Regards

Tocemma

Official capacity was 28 rounds and all training manuals stressed this. When we adopted a modified ZB27 and converted it to a rimmed .303 round, someone in a drawing office messed up the measurements and whilst it was envisaged as a 30 round magazine , it might take 29 at a push but reliability suffered badly. When conversion eventually took place back to a rimless ( 7.62 nato) round, the magazine was re designed and the problem solved.