Cup, grenade, no. 1 mk 1

[SimonMoore]

Hi Chaps,

Just wondering if anyone can give me a date for introduction of the Cup, grenade, no. 1 mk 1 for use with rodded No. 23 grenades, I've had a hard time finding this information online or in my (admitedly somewhat limited) collection of literature. I also did a few searches of the forum but didn't find anything so hope this isn't a repeat question.

Thanks in advance!

Also, sorry for the non-specific title, accidental copy paste and now can't edit it...

[4thGordons]

I think you can edit your title if you click edit and then Use Full Editor

The Cup, No.23 rifle Grenade No1 MkI, Steel for Rifles, short MLE with sword bayonets, pattern 1903 and 1907 was introduced with LoC para 17874 on the 7th of July 1916. (Skennerton TLE p353)

Chris

[SimonMoore]

Hi Chris, many thanks, from seeing previous LoC quotes on here I was hopeful someone would be able to give me the exact date, greatly appreciated. And thread title modified, thanks for that tip too.

[Gunner Bailey]

It is worth noting that before July 1916 the No 5 was used as a rifle grenade, with special base plugs made by Morum & Co.

With the Mills No 5 used as a rifle grenade the actual introduction seems to be around April or May 1916.

Morum continued to make these No 5 Rifle grenade base plugs through to November 1916 despite the earlier introduction of the No 23 Mk I.

There were some improvised rings and cups which held the grenade lever and in some cases the lever was set against the top edge of the bayonet without any additional kit at all.

I have evidence from a Bombers training course in May 1916 showing the No 5 being used as a rifle grenade in the manner noted above (ring).

LOC's are normally a general guide to mainstream releases but they are notorious late in some cases. They can't be taken literally in many cases, listing dates well after the actual introduction in the field.

Sadly the Mills rifle grenade - No 23 Mk I, was only widely available from August or September 1916, too late to affect the early stages of the Battle of the Somme.

John

[geluveld]

A couple of years ago we recovered about 100 of these Morum &Co base plugs in one pit.

Together with a fair few of other very early mills plugs and nr3 detonators in their transport tins.

Seemed that they were discarded after arrival in a depot, as the finding place was at the side of a large railway site.

A UK based mills bomb collector told me that presumably the plugs were changed for another type, somewhere early 1916 and then dumped as they had no use for them.

But haven't found any evidence on that matter.

[Ogilwy]

There were several Ordnance Board Procedures that instructed for the replacement of Base Plugs for any of several reasons. One of these is probably the case. Oddly enough whilst excavating in Geluveld, ahead of a pipeline, I found a store full of various equipment. No grenades but about 4000+ Rounds of .303in MkVII!

The evidence is in the OB Proc's and National Archives has a set with the only other being held by ourselves.

Rod

[Gunner Bailey]

A couple of years ago we recovered about 100 of these Morum &Co base plugs in one pit.

Together with a fair few of other very early mills plugs and nr3 detonators in their transport tins.

Seemed that they were discarded after arrival in a depot, as the finding place was at the side of a large railway site.

A UK based mills bomb collector told me that presumably the plugs were changed for another type, somewhere early 1916 and then dumped as they had no use for them.

But haven't found any evidence on that matter.

Was that in Belgium? Do you remember the earliest date stamped on one of these Morum plugs?

John

[JMB1943]

It is worth noting that before July 1916 the No 5 was used as a rifle grenade, with special base plugs made by Morum & Co.

With the Mills No 5 used as a rifle grenade the actual introduction seems to be around April or May 1916.

Morum continued to make these No 5 Rifle grenade base plugs through to November 1916 despite the earlier introduction of the No 23 Mk I.

There were some improvised rings and cups which held the grenade lever and in some cases the lever was set against the top edge of the bayonet without any additional kit at all.

I have evidence from a Bombers training course in May 1916 showing the No 5 being used as a rifle grenade in the manner noted above (ring).

LOC's are normally a general guide to mainstream releases but they are notorious late in some cases. They can't be taken literally in many cases, listing dates well after the actual introduction in the field.

Sadly the Mills rifle grenade - No 23 Mk I, was only widely available from August or September 1916, too late to affect the early stages of the Battle of the Somme.

John

So the Mills bomb No. 5 was first used in the early summer of 1916, and (from a thread in about 2011) the rifles were not bound with cord or wire until 1940. Is that a correct summary ?

My questions concern the issue of the modified rifles required to fire the Mills bombs. How many were issued to a platoon/company/battalion ? To whom were they issued---would it have been primarily/only the trained bomb throwers ?

Regards,

JMB

[calibre792x57.y]

JMB - I think that in general and in particular with the Grenade cups, grenades were issued to all Infantry with the intention that they be passed to the trained 'bombers' and 'rifle grenadiers' to use. I don't know how many Grenade cups for the No.23 were issued, but the S & B Discharger Cups for the No.36 were issued on the basis of Ninety-Six per battalion and were regarded as part of the Battalions assaulting power. I expect that the No.23 was issued on the same basis as they remained in service throughout the War. - SW

[Gunner Bailey]

So the Mills bomb No. 5 was first used in the early summer of 1916, and (from a thread in about 2011) the rifles were not bound with cord or wire until 1940. Is that a correct summary ?

Regards,

JMB

I've not seen any evidence of wire bound rifles for grenade launching before WW2. A few months ago I was lucky enough to handle a wire bound Home Guard Rifle (before it was deactivated) and the brass wire was incredibly tightly wound on. Great to see.

John