Princess Pat's & their Ross Rifles

[tarzanakid]

Can anyone tell me just WHEN the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry swapped their Ross Mk111's for Lee-Enfields? Did this happen company by company or all in one go (which companies?)? Did it happen at Bustard Camp, Morn Hill Camp Winchester, Blaringham, Dickiebush or later for example? Were any Ross's still in use by PPCLI at Frezenberg, Belewaarde Ridge or even later by the front line PPCLI? Were Ross's perhaps used in the rear areas by this unit? I have scoured the War Diary, internet & even asked the PPCLI museum in Canada but info on the specific changeover times is sparse. I need to be accurate because it features in the latest (book #6) I am writing in my WW1 fiction series & this title concentrates on the PPCLI. Books on the PPCLI seem to be rare, very expensive or don't go into much detail. I have seen the other threads in sub-forum "Arms" on Canadians & Ross in general but again no PPCLI specifics.

Thank you

Bob PIckles

(author of "Darling be Home Soon" ; "Dear Son, Stay Safe" ; "Dear Husband - Missing You" ; "Demure Sarah, Divine Angel" ; "Dear Brother, Don't Volunteer" & the forthcoming "Son, Honour the Patricia's")

[jhill]

It would seem that the exchange of rifles took place at Winchester on or before Dcember 4th 1914. They had moved from Bustard to Winchester on November 16th where they joined the 80th Brigade of the 27th Division on the 20th. The War Diary entry for December 4th implies that the change of rifles had just occurred and one or two companies were out practising with the new weapons that day. I may be misreading the diaries, but you can check here:

http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=princess&s13=&s12=&l=20&s9=RG9&s7=9-52&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect4=AND&Sect5=WARDPEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=FIND&p=1&u=http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/archivianet/02015202_e.html&r=1&f=G

[tarzanakid]

Yes, thanks - I have seen that bit of the War Diary but am still looking for more detail if possible by specific company (diary only says 'one or two companies practicing with Lee-Enfields ' on the 4th Dec). According to David J Bercuson's book "The Patricias" it implies all had Lee-Enfields by 20th Dec on departure via Southampton for France. I must assume therefore all the exchanges in all Companies were achieved. I will employ some writer's licence in having a few 'spare' Ross's retained for rear area duty by cooks, POW guards et to 'fit' in with my story where in my book, a Sergeant will be involved in a black market scam to sell some recently exchanged Ross rifles to local Brits in a Winchester pub in Dec 1914 & a rear-echelon 'Pat' guarding some German prisoners in a rear area near Bellewaarde Lake in May 1915 will have difficulty with his Ross's bolt mechanism (it falls out), enabling an escape to occur. So, that's how I will proceed for now but in the meantime in anyone comes up with more info it will be most welcomed. As a writer, one lives in constant fear of the 'anorak' who will gaily point out such & such a Mk of Panzer only has 5 rivets per inch & not 6 as depicted in some 1970's film!

(I've already covered the myth of the rearward flying Ross bolt in another book!).

Thank you all,

Bob Pickles

[regimentalrogue]

From "Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, 1914-1919," by Ralph Hodder Williams, 1968 (p, 15)::

Dec 1914; Bustard Camp

"Particular attention was paid to musketry, as the Ross rifle had been replaced by the Lee-Enfield pattern used in the British Army."

[17107BM]

I have to say, i had a shoot of a Ross Rifle up at the range a couple of weeks ago. It is a very good piece of kit. I'm told that the Canadian Sniper's kept there rifles because they were so accurate and kept clean were no problem on the Battle field.

But seeing the bolt mechanism with it's precise system, you can see why it soon got stopped by the mud.

A realy good rifle and given the chance would add one to my collection.

I should of took a pic, as it was a good example.

Cheers all.

[4thGordons]

Here's mine.

There were other issues beyond just dirt with the M1910 (and the political backstory on the rifle and how it came to be is in itself, fascinating) - As I understand it one other practical issue was that the chamber dimensions on the rifle were very very tight. This worked with pre war Canadian ammunition that had tight manufacturing tolerances as could be afforded during peacetime production but as more variability was introduced with wartime production this also produced significant problems with extraction. A tight chamber will also exacerbate problems with dirt of course.

There was an investigation into the jamming issues in 1916 by Major Blair (?) who was a Canadian Small Arms Inspector and, if I recall correctly, he identified the bolt-stop as a key weakness in that it deformed the lug and led over time to jamming, something that was made worse the harder the bolt was slammed back (so it became a vicious cycle, a sticky bolt needed harder working, led to more damage, led to higher likelihood of total jam)

I find the Ross rather long and somewhat cumbersome compared to the ShtLE but there is no doubt they are accurate under good conditions