trajan Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 I would appreciate it if anyone can help with this locket marking. It's snowing so no photograph possible at the moment... The locket is the 'tear-drop' type, and has the maker's mark 'RE', which I believe is for REMINGTON, who, as I understand it, made bayonets and I assume scabbards also for the 1907 and 1913, the two types of scabbard being interchangeable. The scabbard it comes with is clearly re-furbished - it has nowt on the left hand side at the rear, but the right hand side has a 'W' indicating it has been waxed, alongside a 'M/58' - MANGROVE (19)58? It is the locket marking that puzzles me. I have always understood that 'Y' was for 'Yeomanry' - but 'YD'? probably (hopefully?) a simple answer... Perhaps Denbighshire Yeomanry (going on order of precedence as per http://www.1914-1918.net/yeomanry.htm)? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2015 Aha - handy little IKEA lamp finally came into use! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 The scabbard it comes with is clearly re-furbished - it has nowt on the left hand side at the rear, but the right hand side has a 'W' indicating it has been waxed, alongside a 'M/58' - MANGROVE (19)58? It is the locket marking that puzzles me. I have always understood that 'Y' was for 'Yeomanry' - but 'YD'? probably (hopefully?) a simple answer... Perhaps Denbighshire Yeomanry (going on order of precedence as per http://www.1914-1918.net/yeomanry.htm)? Trajan, The WW2 code ' M/58 ' is not for the Australian ' Mangrove ', but is the code for the British Company J. Cliff & Co. Ltd., Walsall, Staffs. The ' YD ' mark could be the County Code for York & Durham. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2015 The WW2 code ' M/58 ' is not for the Australian ' Mangrove ', but is the code for the British Company J. Cliff & Co. Ltd., Walsall, Staffs. The ' YD ' mark could be the County Code for York & Durham. Many thanks LF! I guess I guessed Mangrove because I had the resurrection of the Australian Bayonets thread on my mind! Never occurred to me it might be a WW2 marking, plus for some erason I have always associated that waxing business with the antipodes... County code for York and Durham? In what way? I do kind of like the possible Denbighshire Yeomanry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 Many thanks LF! I guess I guessed Mangrove because I had the resurrection of the Australian Bayonets thread on my mind! Never occurred to me it might be a WW2 marking, plus for some erason I have always associated that waxing business with the antipodes... County code for York and Durham? In what way? I do kind of like the possible Denbighshire Yeomanry... Trajan, M/58 is definitely the WW2 code for British WW2 scabbard maker Jabez Cliff & Co. Ltd., of Walsall, Staffs. With the scabbard having been made during WW2, the scabbard throat marking must also be WW2 or later, not a WW1 Yeomanry marking. There was a York & Durham Brigade in WW2, so that could be a possibility. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 With the scabbard having been made during WW2, the scabbard throat marking must also be WW2 or later, not a WW1 Yeomanry marking. I am not certain that is an entirely safe assertion. There were a number of contracts to repair/refurbish scabbards during WWII and suppliers who supplied components rather than complete scabbards so it is at least conceivable that you have reused metalwork on new leathers. This would be supported by the facts that it is indicated it is RE marked and that the throat appears (from the partial image) to be figured (curved bottom edge) rather than straight cut, which tended to be the norm on later production. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooper Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 As a thought, what about the YD marking to be Yorkshire Dragoons??? Cooper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 I am not certain that is an entirely safe assertion. Chris That's true..........I was too busy looking at the WW2 M/58 mark and overlooked that the locket had an ' RE ' mark. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 Yes Cooper, that could be as good a bet as any. Though of course this only relates to the locket as it is a WW2 rebuilt scabbard. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 11 February , 2015 Share Posted 11 February , 2015 As a thought, what about the YD marking to be Yorkshire Dragoons??? Cooper Agree with Tony, ' YD ' for Yorkshire Dragoons stamped on a old locket re-fitted to a WW2 scabbard, would fit. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Many thanks indeed, LF, 4G, Cooper, and MSDT! The chap who supplied me with this repeatedly picks up scabbards, I think mainly from Greece, to trade on elsewhere, and when he gets a figured (ie., shaped) tear-drop locket example (like this one) he passes them on to me at a reasonable price to hold as replacements in case a WW1 period but scabbard-less P1907 or 1913 comes my way. In every case the scabbard is black (or almost so) and has the slightly oily feel, while lockets and chapes have been scrubbed pretty clean (i.e., bright if slightly pitted steel, no patina). With specific regard to this example, I think it is a fair chance that it is all 'original', in a sense, as the 'M/58' and 'W' markings are on the right hand side of the seam, and there are scraping marks on the left hand side where the original mark would have been, although there is no visible mark (RE or other) on the chape. I have just looked at another one he supplied to me, again a figured tear-drop locket with a RE marking, and a RE-marked chape, but there is nothing to be seen on either side of the seam. There again, a third example from him is certainly a part re-build: this has a probably Enfield locket (with an illegible 3-digit serial number on the top), an Enfield mark on the left side of the seam and a 'refurbishing' mark that I haven't quite worked out yet on the right hand side, but the chape is an RE... Yorkshire Dragoons? Yes, I do like that one! Thanks again, one and all, for your valued insights and comments! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Trajan, Perhaps J. Cliff added their code mark when they refurbished the scabbard, either way, enjoy having it in your collection and yes, Yorkshire Dragoons does have a nice ring to it ! Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 13 February , 2015 Share Posted 13 February , 2015 Yes, Yorkshire Dragoons is a good result! I do, however, have several Remington WW1 scabbards on my bayonets, so they must have made quite a lot. The notes I have with me are not complete enough, but I'm fairly sure that both locket and chape are stamped by Remington. There are 3 different varieties that I have seen: RE on its own, RE with a line above and below, RE in a circle. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2015 There are 3 different varieties that I have seen: RE on its own, RE with a line above and below, RE in a circle. Bingo! I have not really looked or studied the marks on what I have (don't forget, I am an accidental P1907/1913 collector!), but yes, I have noticed some differences between them. Best, Julian PS: Have updated the topic tags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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