Burial of Comines Warneton 6: 16 April 2015

[MelPack]

The Comines Warneton 6 are to be re-interred at Prowse Point on 16 April next.

If the press report is accurate, it does not look as if the DNA testing has provided matches for Parkinson and Pulford either:

The remains of a World War I soldier, who is believed to be from a County Longford family, are to be buried at a Belgian military cemetery not far from the battlefield site where his body was discovered, writes Patrick Conboy.

Although the remains are thought to be of Private James Rowan, the son of a Longford man who emigrated to England, a spokesperson for the Ministry of Defence in the United Kingdom said he will be buried as an unknown soldier because no definite link can be established with potential living relatives, despite a number of people from the county coming forward after an appeal was issued last year.

“We have taken DNA samples from the remains, so if we can make a definite link in future we can change the name on the headstone,” Lynne Gammond, a press officer for British Army Headquarters, told the Longford Leader.

The remains were one of six sets discovered in the Belgian village of Comines-Warneton five years ago, and Ms Gammond explained that the bodies of World War I soldiers are found on a regular basis in areas where battles took place.

“It’s not unusual for remains to be discovered during agricultural or construction work, or when heavy rain washes away soil,” she said. “Sometimes they can be identified by a cap badge or dog tag.”

Ms Gammond went on to say there were also other means of narrowing down the possible identity of unearthed remains.

“When they’re discovered at a certain spot, we can look at regimental war diaries to see where the unit was on a certain date, which can be a useful indicator as some will have lists of casualties.”

Pte Rowan served with the Lancashire Fusiliers and he was killed in action sometime between October 20 and 27, 1914. His suspected remains will be interred at Prowse Point Commonwealth Wargraves Commission Cemetery on Thursday, April 16, along with those of five other unidentified men. They will be accorded full military honours at a ceremony presided over by a military chaplain, and a rifle party will be present to perform a three-volley salute. Their headstones will carry the inscription, ‘A soldier of the Great War, known unto God’.

http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/local-news/bid-to-locate-living-relatives-of-world-war-i-soldier-with-longford-connection-goes-on-1-6533841

[walbeer]

Hello, je suis un porte-drapeau belge de l'Entente des Associations Patriotiques de Comines-Warneton. Je suis heureux d'apprendre que les six soldats seront enfin remis en terre avec tous les honneurs qu'ils méritent. Salutations Patriotiques. WALBEER.

[Seadog]

To the CWGC

The CWGC will no doubt be posting full details of the burial of six WW1 soldiers on 16th April 2015 at Prowse Point Belgium. You will also be aware that the remains of these soldiers have been "stored" for at least six years and maybe longer. No doubt the CWGC cannot be happy about this state of affairs. Please confirm that you will be reporting the burials on your website in good time for those who may wish to attend

Reply from the CWGC

Thank you for your e-mail and please allow me to offer you my sincerest apologies for my belated reply; this is due to the very high volume of correspondence we are receiving during this Centenary period. In terms of your query, while I can unfortunately offer no comment on the first point you make, in terms of the second - the burial you mention at Prowse Point - these details should be made available for the public on our website. However, I have also passed your query along to our Media and Marketing Manager and should he have any detail to offer, I will be in touch once more. Thank you again and please let me know if there's anything else I can assist you with, please just ask.

Response by me to CWGC

Thanks for the response Jackie, much appreciated. I understand your reluctance to comment on the timescale of these burials although I understand that the CWGC was concerned enough to make an agreement with the MOD that the discovered dead will be buried within 18 months of discovery and I assume that this still applies.

Norman

[walbeer]

Bonjour , je reçois en tant que porte-drapeau a Comines-Warneton, cette information: la cérémonie concernant l'enterrement des 6 soldats aura bien lieu le 16 avril 2015 à 10 heures au Prowse Point cemetery. Salutations Patriotique Walbeer.

[Ghazala]

Merci beaucoup Walbeer.

[Seadog]

Can someone translate please

Norman

[Andrew Upton]

Can someone translate please

Norman

Very roughly (something lost near the start):

"Hello , I get as flagship has Comines-Warneton , this information : the ceremony for the funeral of the 6 soldiers will take place April 16, 2015 at 10 am at Prowse Point cemetery . Greetings Patriotic Walbeer ."

[Bombadier]

I think it starts:-

I received as standard bearer for Comines-Warenton this information.

Then as above.

Nigel

[Seadog]

The CWGC have just posted the details on their website

Link

http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2015/3/reburial-at-prowse-point-cemetery-16-april-2015.aspx

I appreciate that the CWGC cannot be held responsible for the inordinate delay between the discovery as I understand it in 2007 of the fallen and their eventual reburial this year eight years after which is in my opinion a completely unacceptable delay and something which those responsible should be ashamed of.

See GWF Topic (Post 90)

 

 

[MelPack]

Come on Norman it has not been eight years at all !

It is worth reproducing Didier's informative post in full:

Dear ladies and gents, this whole discussion is running out of hand and I would like to get some things straight.
I'm responsable for the Belgian War Graves and this is how everything happened and stands.
Some small fragments were discovered by members of a historical society in december 2007 on the surface of a farmers field. These members can't start digging without permission of a) the owner of the field and in this case the government of Wallonie.This is the law, wether you like it or not. This is to prevent people to start digging where ever they like. Also remember these people are also familymen and do have jobs. So in April 2008 they exhumed a body and called the police. What else should you do if you find a dead body, pretty logical no? And still everything according to Belgian law. Police came, took the body AND the artifacts in safety but stopped the society peopole from digging any further. Why? Because the police wasn't aware of what the correct procedure is in this matter. Not supprisingly, this doesn't happen every day in their area. In Belgium there is only in West-Flanders province a detailed procedure for this kind of incident. Why didn't anyone call the CWGC? Because they have no authority in this matter at all! This is Belgium by the way, not the UK or France. The archeologists need to exhume a body before thinking about a nationality. You can hardly call in every nation who has lost men in this country. One thing was for sure, there were more bodies under the field. Then the police called us (Belgian MOD) and we took the body and artifacts with us to a nearby army base. We explained to procedure to them and as soon as they realised that the archeologists did it the correct way, they gave the green light. But, by then the farmer had a new crop on his field. Remember, that's what he is living of!
The mayor of Comines-Warneton wanted to see and hear eveybody concerned before going any further so a meeting with all actors was planned. Ever tried to get about 7 or 8 officials from all over the country at one table? Believe me, that takes a lot of time. In the meanwhile, we (Belgian War Graves) changed from MOD to a semi-civilian organism. At last in spring 2010 this meeting was held (mayor, police; CWGC, Belgian War Graves, Government of Wallonie, the historical society, etc...) Everything was ok but the archeologists needed to ask for a new permission to dig, the permit was now outdated . When this new permit came the field was again in use so the society people needed to wait again untill the field was cleared. This was in october the case. No, they didn't wait fot november 11th to be close, they had to wait untill the field was free! Then 4 more bodies were exhumed under my supervision and given over to the police. Later that week I took the bodies and artefacts over from the police and took them to the army base. At last on October 30, the exhumation from a week before being stopped because of bad weather and darkness, the last of six bodies was exhumed and again, same procedure, police took the body and handed it over to me with the artifacts. CWGC was notified as soon as the first body was exhumed and cooperated very well and according to Belgian law. The six bodies and artefacts are now in the nearby army base untill CWGC gives us the word and then we hand over the bodies to be buried.
Concerning identification: 2 bodies belong to the Kings Own Royal Lancasters, 2 to the Lancashire Fusiliers and the other 2 were identified as British because British uniform buttons were found on them. Regarding further identification: only British MOD and not CWGC, I repeat NOT CWGC are responsible.
Hoping this explanation served its course,
Didier

By the way, all this above has been said in public but not all of this has reached the big public

There has been no wanton delay in re-interrring these remains. As with matters of this kind, there is always a context that goes beyond explanations based upon neglect, indifference or even conspiracy.

You will recall that some five years ago that a very successful lobbying campaign was initiated around the issue of DNA testing of the BL15 in which yourself and many other posters on the Board participated. As a result of that campaign, a ministerial commitment was secured for DNA testing to be undertaken on recovered remains where the circumstances were appropriate.

Due to the austerity drive, no funding was made available for such testing until the financial year 2013-14. Priority was then accorded to the identification of the BL15 and the Lancs Fusiliers amongst the Comines Warneton 6.

You are obviously aware of the outcome of the BL15 project. It was hoped that the Comines Warneton project would achieve the same results not least because three soldiers, Rowan, Pulford and Parkinson, killed in action on 20 October 1914, were actually named by the Battalion War Diary as being buried in precisely the location from which the remains were recovered.

The burials were actually scheduled for last October but were deferred to allow for further compatible donors to be located when the anticipated DNA matches did not come through. Sadly, the further testing yielded nothing positive and one soldier, Rowan, remains without a compatible donor (the last such traceable person having died in 2008).

We have travelled a long way in the last five years. Burials may not be as quick as you would like but delays are often for very good reasons.

Mel

[Seadog]

From: Erna Rondelez, CWGC YPRES

BERICHT VAN EEN MILITAIRE BEGRAVING

Bij deze laten wij u weten dat op donderdag, 16 april 2015 om 10.00u, de stoffelijke resten van 6 onbekende Britse soldaten, waarvan 2 van de Lancashire Fusiliers en 2 van de King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, op Prowse Point Military Cemetery zullen begraven worden. U bent welkom om deze plechtigheid bij te wonen. Zie bericht op onze website: http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2015/3/reburial-at-prowse-point-cemetery-16-april-2015.aspx

NOTIFICATION OF MILITARY BURIAL SERVICE

Please note that on Thursday, 16 April 2015 at 1000hrs the remains of 6 unknown British soldiers, of which two belonged to the Lancashire Fusiliers and 2 to the King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, will be buried at Prowse Point Military Cemetery. You are welcome to attend this service. See note on our website: http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2015/3/reburial-at-prowse-point-cemetery-16-april-2015.aspx

NOTIFICATION D’UN ENTERREMENT MILITAIRE

Nous vous informons que Jeudi 16 avril 2015 à 10.00 heures aura lieu l’inhumation des dépouilles de 6 soldats britanniques inconnus, dont deux appartenaient au Lancashire Fusiliers et deux au King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, au cimetière Prowse Point Military Cemetery. Vous êtes les bienvenus à la cérémonie.

Tous les détails sont disponibles en suivant le lien: http://www.cwgc.org/news-events/news/2015/3/reburial-at-prowse-point-cemetery-16-april-2015.aspx

[MelPack]

Walbeer is obviously going to the burials as part of a standard bearing contingent. Is anybody else planning to attend?

[walbeer]

Hello, excuse pour le message en français: donc demain jeudi nous sommes présents avec +/-15 porte-drapeaux belge, français et britannique au cimetière miliaire, une musique miliaire belge est aussi prévue, en principe deux pelotons de l'armée britannique des autorités de divers pays est prévues. Mais le détail de cette cérémonie n'est pas publié . Cette cérémonie est mise en place par les autorités britannique, et est un exemple de respect éternel et un devoir de mémoire envers ces soldats morts pour notre liberté. Walbeer. Début de la cérémonie 10hr.

[Seadog]

The full Order of Service is here

http://www.cwgc.org/media/401222/20150408-amc_prowsepoint_order_of_service-o.pdf

May they Rest in Peace and may all those who await proper reburial be granted this last gesture of respect from their Country.

Norman

PS Some discreet images of the event would be appreciated.

[Yorke Scarlett]

Post #12

Yes I will be attending; and, as on previous occasions with the multitude of the media baggage train this normally entails, with the restricted parking (even though this has been eased by recent improvements - I will be parking at the Plugstreet Memorial and walk to Prowse Point up Mud Lane.

[walbeer]

Bonjour, dans la mesure du possible je mettrais sur le forum quelques photos de cette cérémonie. Walbeer. Porte-drapeau FNC Warneton et Bas-Warneton et membre de la Fraternelle Royale des Chasseurs Ardennais. Un contact avec Yorke Scarlett après la cérémonie est la bienvenue.

[Seadog]

Merci Tres Bien

Hello, as far as possible I would put on the forum some pictures of the ceremony. Walbeer. Flagship FNC and Lower Warneton and member of the Fraternal Royal of Ardennes Hunters. Contact with Yorke Scarlett after the ceremony is welcome.

Norman

[Yorke Scarlett]

Walbeer

Merci beaucoup.

Je ai hâte de vous rencontrer lors de la cérémonie, et peut-être un verre au de Claude?

Wayne

[Seadog]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glosters/17138850426/in/photostream

[MelPack]

A few early snippets:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32308315

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/apr/16/6-british-soldiers-reburied-a-century-after-dying/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/570887/Six-British-First-World-War-heroes-laid-rest-full-military-honours-Ypres

[walbeer]

PHOTOS

Voir les photos sur le blog: Ploegsteert Info    Walbeer[attachment=210287:CEMETERY 160415A.jpg][attachment=210286:CEMETERY 160415C.jpg]

[SteveMarsdin]

Excellent photos, Walbeer, thanks for posting and for been there.

[walbeer]

Souvenir de la cérémonie du 16 avril 2015. Walbeer.

[Seadog]

Thanks for posting the photos looking forward to seeing a few more

Merci de poster la photos hâte de voir un peu plus

(Google translate)

Norman

[Steven Broomfield]

Today's Tottygraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/11542405/101-years-on-six-British-World-War-One-soldiers-reburied-with-honour.html

Presumably the poor devils must have become separated from their units and horribly lost on the retreat from Mons. Sad to see a once-great newspaper make such a shoddy mistake.