Indian Army Officers held back by Kitchener

[Guest]

Soon after the declaration of war Kitchener prevented (British) Indian Army Officers on furlough in the UK from returning to their regiments in India.

I have seen figures ranging from 300 to 500 and wondered if anyone knew the exact number? I wonder if the difference is explained by British Officers from British Regiments in the UK on leave being prevented from returning as well. 200 sounds a reasonably high figure but would probably only mean less than 2 British Officers per British InfantryBattalion/Battery/Cav Regt. I assume most British Officer's in the UK on leave were prevented from returning.

My interest is really trying to establish the exact numbers. Many of the Infantry wallahs ended up in K1 battalions. A trawl of the May 1915 Army list shows around 60 88, which is way short of the 300 or so. Any pointers on where the others might have ended up would be gratefully received. Thanks MG

[RussT]

I assume you've seen this already, but I see Simkins (Kitchener's Army) on page 212 quotes a figure of 500 (but no reference is given).

Regards

Russ

[Guest]

I assume you've seen this already, but I see Simkins (Kitchener's Army) on page 212 quotes a figure of 500 (but no reference is given).

Regards

Russ

Yes, thanks. Other sources say 300.

[charlesmessenger]

Martin

Some Indian Army officers were appointed to the Staff. Allenby had two of these as intelligence offices in the Cavalry Division, recruited before it formed in France.

Charles M

[westkent78]

Have you checked the Indian Army lists too?

I seem to recall that Officers with 'Indian' experience were at a premium because of the shocking numbers of casualties to those who had come over in 1914 with the Indian Corps. They needed Officers who spoke the language and understood the culture of the sepoys etc.

Matthew

[David Filsell]

They became so, but initially it was all men on leave to the pumps.

[Guest]

Martin

Some Indian Army officers were appointed to the Staff. Allenby had two of these as intelligence offices in the Cavalry Division, recruited before it formed in France.

Charles M

Thanks Charles.

I had assumed many would end up in Brigade Staffs and Div Staffs as there was a huge shortage of staff officers. I have found 88 British Indian Army Officers so far listed in the Army Lists in British battalions.

[westkent78]

They became so, but initially it was all men on leave to the pumps.

David,

Could they have been pulled from their British Army postings back into whichever Indian Army unit needed Pashtun/Hindi/Garhwali speakers? Martin is searching in May 1915 so might many of them have disappeared from the lists he's looking at?

Matthew

[Guest]

David,

Could they have been pulled from their British Army postings back into whichever Indian Army unit needed Pashtun/Hindi/Garhwali speakers? Martin is searching in May 1915 so might many of them have disappeared from the lists he's looking at?

Matthew

There was a high concentration* in Kitchener units and there is strong evidence these men stayed with these units. It is interesting that some Indian Army units are not represented in the list at all. There is no correlation between the men held back and Indian units left in India. A number of Indian Army battalions that served with the IEFA's Indian Army Corps in France in 1914-15 lost British Officers to Kitchener's demands. In theory they would have needed these Officers. 57th Wilde's Rifles (Frontier Force) which formed part of the Lahore Division's Ferozepore Bde lost four Officers this way.

I have Nov 1914 and May 1915 Army Lists. While the consistency is high, they do not always show the same men in the same battalions. There are remarkably few subalterns. Some Indian Army regiments were represented more than others by a large margin. Some are not represented at all. Some British battalions had higher numbers than others. The fact that they were note evenly distributed might suggest an element of patronage.

Regiments with 4 Officers serving in British Battalions:

• 22nd Punjabis
• 57th Wilde's Rifles (Frontier Force)

Regiments with 3 Officers serving in British Battalions:

• 13th Rajputs
• 14th KGO's Ferozepore Sikhs
• 25th Punjabis
• 26th Punjabis
• 40th Pathans
• 74th Punjabis
• 5th Gurkha Rifles

British battalions with 4 (British) Indian Army Officers:

• 8th Bn Northumberland Fusiliers

British battalions with 3 (British) Indian Army Officers:

• 12th Bn Royal Scots
• 9th Bn KRRC
• 6th Bn Royal Irish Rifles
• 6th Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers

British battalions with 2 (British) Indian Army Officers:

• 11th Bn King's (Liverpool Regiment)
• 6th Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers
• 10th Bn Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders
• 7th Bn Royal Dublin Fusiliers
• 9th Bn Rifle Brigade

The distribution looks fairly random, but there are some interesting groupings. Three of the four Indian Army Officers with the 8th Bn Northumberland Fusilers were from the same regiment - the 25th Punjabis. Scottish battalions had a propensity to take Officers with distinctly Scottish surnames; the 10th Bn A&SH's Indian Army Officers were Campbell and McPherson and both were from the 40th Pathans. The KRRC and Rifle Brigade has a higher proportion of Officers from the Gurkha Rifles (an association going back to the right flank at Delhi Ridge 1857 in the case of KRRC). Despite this there was no real correlation between light Infantry units for example.

I have identified 247 Officers who had Indian Army connections serving in Regular Army infantry battalions in May 1915.

• 88 serving Officers - high concentration in Kitchener battalions
• 90 Indian Army (retired) - an unsurprisingly heavy tilt towards Lt Cols and Majors
• 61 Indian Army (unattached List)
• 8 Indian Army volunteer units

It would be interesting to see how the Officers were allocated. All (British) Indian Army infantry Officers had to serve a probationary year with a British Army infantry battalion prior to joining his regiment. I wonder if (British) Indian Army Officers ended up with Regiments that they had done their probationary year with. The other possibility was allocation by patronage. MG

* 84% of the 88 serving Officers were attached to a Kitchener battalion

[CSMMo]

Lt. Col. Francis Wynter, DSO, 29th Indian Mountain Battery was assigned to command the 4th Highland Mountain Brigade, RGA (TF) in the 29th Division from March 1915 (when they were transferred from the 51st (Highland) Division to the 29th Division prior to their deployment to Gallipoli). While so assigned he concurrently commanded the Artillery Group III for the 29th Division Artillery. Could he have been one of those held in the UK, then so assigned due to his mountain gun experience?

Mike Morrison

[charlesmessenger]

8th Royal Fusiliers had Capt C A G Money 130 Baluch posted in in August 1914. He was killed when with his own regiment in East Africa in December 1916. I suspect that many Indian Army officers did return to their own regiments, especially because of the high casualty rate among British officers in the Indian Army, notably with the Indian Corps in France.

Charles M

[Muerrisch]

Martin, sad to relate but the Army List you are consulting may be too late to record many of the officers ....... long dead and gone, consumed in the fires of autumn, winter and spring.

[Guest]

Martin, sad to relate but the Army List you are consulting may be too late to record many of the officers ....... long dead and gone, consumed in the fires of autumn, winter and spring.

I am not sure quite how regularly the Army List was produced in 1914-15 and how up to date they would have been. I also have the Army List on the eve of war before the Kitchener Armies were raised. The Nov 1914 Army List (available online) shows the Kitchener Battalions at various stages of development. The May 1915 Army List records the K1 and K2 battalions at their peak as they embarked but before casualties. Resolving K1 Officers against the war diaries provides a very high coincidence of named officers - and the Indian Army Officers. i.e the 8th Northumberland Fus did go off to Gallipoli with their four Indian Army Officers, and just about every K1 battalion in the 10th, 11th and 13th Divs in the Dardanelles had an Indian Army Officer. Interestingly the three 25th Punjabis officers don't appear in the 8th Northumberland Fus in Nov 1914. Most IA officers with the K1 Divs at Gallipoli became casualties within 2 weeks of landing, many wounded who subsequently recovered. I suspect this is when they were recycled back into their original Indian Army regiments..

I don't see much any evidence of Indian Army officers serving in British battalions in 1914 and early 1915. It is distinctly possible that more senior officers served on Brigade and Div Staffs, but tracking these men is slightly more difficult. My sense is that most did not deploy until the Kitchener Armies went overseas.

MG

[paulgranger]

There is a new book ' British Infantry Battalion Commanders in the First World War' by Peter Hodgkinson. It is an Ashgate publication, and so priced to make you scream, and I don't know much of it's content, but it may contain the provenance of the various commanders. It does seem to have been pretty thoroughly researched. You can 'look inside' on Amazon.

[Muerrisch]

The only month in which an Army List was NOT published was September 1914. Sadly, apart from August 1914 and November 1918 all that I have is a full scan over every issue's RWF lists.

The lags are often about two issues between death and omission.

[Guest]

There is a new book ' British Infantry Battalion Commanders in the First World War' by Peter Hodgkinson. It is an Ashgate publication, and so priced to make you scream, and I don't know much of it's content, but it may contain the provenance of the various commanders. It does seem to have been pretty thoroughly researched. You can 'look inside' on Amazon.

Thank you for flagging this. This is right up my street. Just bought it (hardcopy) and as if by magic a kindle sample arrived too, so I can start reading it. Brilliant.

In his intro he takles a few authors and their misconceptions on the Officer class. He states that Lewis-Stemple's 'Six Weeks' claim is a myth which was the clincher. A claim that has annoyed me for some considerable time. It looks well researched. From what I have read so far though the use of Indian Army officers in K1 does not appear to have been covered in detail. MG

The only month in which an Army List was NOT published was September 1914. Sadly, apart from August 1914 and November 1918 all that I have is a full scan over every issue's RWF lists.

The lags are often about two issues between death and omission.

1914 (July I think) and Nov 1914 are freely available online.

[Matthew B.]

Lt. Col. Francis Wynter, DSO, 29th Indian Mountain Battery was assigned to command the 4th Highland Mountain Brigade, RGA (TF) in the 29th Division from March 1915 (when they were transferred from the 51st (Highland) Division to the 29th Division prior to their deployment to Gallipoli). While so assigned he concurrently commanded the Artillery Group III for the 29th Division Artillery. Could he have been one of those held in the UK, then so assigned due to his mountain gun experience?

Mike Morrison

Mike, not sure if counts - he may have been serving with an Indian Mountain battery but I am almost certain he was a Royal Artillery officer (so British service) rather than Indian Army.

[westkent78]

Thanks for those figures Martin. Raises many questions.

Matthew

[CSMMo]

Mike, not sure if counts - he may have been serving with an Indian Mountain battery but I am almost certain he was a Royal Artillery officer (so British service) rather than Indian Army.

Thanks Matthew. You are right. I'm not clear on the categories of "Indian Army" and those who served in the Indian units (like LTC Wynter). I haven't been able to find out how he was assigned to the 4th Highland Mountain Brigade in place of the serving commander, LTC Colin Macleod Robertson, DSO, who was then assigned to command the 51st DAC, serving in that capacity for the remainder of the war. One of the many obscure details.

Mike Morrison

[CampbellBros]

On 02/02/2015 at 22:37, Guest said:

Some Indian Army regiments were represented more than others by a large margin. Some are not represented at all. Some British battalions had higher numbers than others. The fact that they were note evenly distributed might suggest an element of patronage.

...

The distribution looks fairly random, but there are some interesting groupings. Three of the four Indian Army Officers with the 8th Bn Northumberland Fusilers were from the same regiment - the 25th Punjabis. Scottish battalions had a propensity to take Officers with distinctly Scottish surnames; the 10th Bn A&SH's Indian Army Officers were Campbell and McPherson and both were from the 40th Pathans.

My great-great-uncle, Captain Graham Douglas Campbell was one of these. He was on home leave when war broke out and made his presence known to the War Office, who assigned him to the 10th Battalion Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders. As a side note, the regimental history of the 40th Pathans relates of this episode that "While inspecting the battalion [10th AG&SH], Lord Kitchener encquired from these two officers after the 40th Pathans, whom he had known well in India. On being informed that the 40th were at Hong Kong and anxious for more active employment, Lord Kitchener remarked that it was a pity to leave such a fine battalion out of it, and added that he would see that they were sent to France." This may also answer the question of whether there was patronage involved.

Incidentally, GD Campbell was killed on the very first day of the Battle of Loos.

On the separate point regarding language skills, GD Campbell's father, who had been a Colonel in the Indian Army, re-enlisted as a Private in order to help out at Indian Army Hospitals as an interpreter.