trenchtrotter Posted 31 January , 2015 Share Posted 31 January , 2015 I am not a collector of de ac weapons as such but as part of my general interest in the Great War and as part of my general collection I do like to have representative weapons to go alongside the uniforms and head gear. I recently aquired this item. A 1917 produced Berthier 07_15 made at the St Etienne arsenal. The barrel, stock and receiver plate have matching and correct serial numbers, the bolt sadly is a mismatch but at least its a St Etienne example. What is nice is that the military acceptance cartouch / stamp is clear on the stock and dates to "Mai" 1917. All wood work is lovely and aged. The 07_15 was introduced in 1915, and really began to be issued in any number from 1916 onwards. Initialy it was given to the colonial troops, Foreign Legion and later from 1917 onwards to the French Line Regiments and also he AEF elements serving in the French army, the Russians and Czechs and Poles etc. It is said that most of the 1917 class of recruits would have had this rifle and by 1918 the percentage of Berthiers v Lebel 1886/93 rifles was 50/50. Of course it never completely replaced the Lebel 1886/93. It was introduced because by late 1914 / early 1915 the French had lost so many Lebels, had underestimated the number of rifles they would have needed for a continental war and had effectively ceased production of the 1886/93. Despite salvaged rifles being refurbished demand exceeded supply and an alternative was required. The 1886/93 was costly to produce, obselete by 1914 (and earlier) and too difficult to really open up the factories again. A rifle known as the Berthier 1907 was already being produced and could be altered slightly and be mass produced. It used a three round clip for ease of loading and was chosen. However it too had its faults and was later modified but thats another tale. I am awaiting delivery of a Lebel 1886/93 and will add on later. The French rifles are overlooked and underrated but they served throughout the war and in the French colonies and wars and saw service in 1939. NB other producers of the 1907_15 were the state arsenal at Chatellerault and the private companies of Continsouza and Delauney Belleville. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 31 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2015 Another view, this time the markings on the side of the receiver. Being in the UK it is of course a deac. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyH Posted 31 January , 2015 Share Posted 31 January , 2015 TT Very nice example, yes it would be be good to have a rifle representative of each nation. So far have an SMLE and a Mauser (Swedish Carl Gustaf, but beautifully made and finished). Can't recall seeing any Lebels at Stoneleigh, but so much to see, may have missed them. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 31 January , 2015 Share Posted 31 January , 2015 Hi TT, That is a lovely example. I finally found a Lebel 2 weeks ago. 1890 example from St. Etienne too, will post some pictures in a couple of days. The engineering is beautiful, didn't realise how well made they were, can see why they kept working in the trenches. Will be interested to see yours when it comes. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 31 January , 2015 Share Posted 31 January , 2015 Hi Mike, DB Militaria had one, the only there l am sure as I was looking! Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 31 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2015 There were 2 at Stoneleigh the D and B one with a 1920 something barrel and another at £1000 with MJL Militaria I think. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 31 January , 2015 Share Posted 31 January , 2015 Very nice find. Well done. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 31 January , 2015 Share Posted 31 January , 2015 Very nice example. A good 07-15 in 3 round format is still a gap in my collection. I have passed on several really rough examples and been unable to afford several extremely nice examples. Amongst the very good examples that turn up here - they are usually mint, are those produced under French contract by Remington. Many did not make it to France and were sold off as surplus here - which explains the condition. These command a very significant premium. I have several versions of the Berthier in carbine format, Mlle 1892 and Mlle 1916 and also a Mlle 1916 long rifle.. I also have an odd Mlle 07-15 cut down to short rifle length for the Turkish forestry service...but as yet no example like this. Well done. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 31 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2015 I believe approx 9000 Remingtons made it to France? These bear serial numbers. The remainder never left the U.S. and have no serial number? They are rare but there was a deac on the market in 2014. At Stoneleigh Militaria fair last Sunday there were six deac 07_15s. One tired 1915 example and the others 1916 or 17. One had cleaned wood and was not attractive. One had a new butt plate and the others were good. All were stamped with a N on the barrel and receiver showing rethroated to accept the more powerful Lebel round in 8mm post 1932. Common enough on all types of Berthiers and 1886/93s As an aside the Lebel I am waiting for is also dated 1890. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 31 January , 2015 Share Posted 31 January , 2015 Here is one of my Mlle 16s also a St Etienne If they would be of interest I could take some snaps of the carbines but I don't want to further hijack your thread. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 1 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2015 It would be good to see them. Perhaps we could start a new thread simply titled WW1 French weapons / guns or rename this one? See as many examples and markings as possible would be great. Since Xmas I have researched lots and believe me French markings on their guns can be like reading Egyptian hieroglyphs. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 1 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2015 Re your Mle 1916 looks nice especially the wood work. Much character TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 1 February , 2015 Share Posted 1 February , 2015 We sold this Mousqueton D’artillerie Gras M80 Mle 1874 at auction a few years ago (pictured second from bottom). It takes the Chassepot bayonet which is almost as big as the gun itself. It was primarily issued to reserve troops in WW1 and even to some in 1940 ! I don't collect militaria but I was nearly tempted as it was in reasonable condition with its original leather strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 1 February , 2015 Share Posted 1 February , 2015 That I take is Rosalie, or were all French bayonets so christened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 1 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2015 I believe the Roselie was the needle pointed cruciform bladed 1886/93 and 1886/93/15. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 1 February , 2015 Share Posted 1 February , 2015 TT's correct, David. The Rosalie was a more pointed bayonet, the Chassepot could also be used like a sword. There's a wonderful photo of (I think) WW1 era soldiers with the Mousqeton and Chassepot on this website: http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/mousq%20Mle%201874.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMarsdin Posted 1 February , 2015 Share Posted 1 February , 2015 The Rosalie had a more lively reputation though: http://war-poets.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/the-erotic-poetry-of-bayonet.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 1 February , 2015 Share Posted 1 February , 2015 Being in the UK it is of course a deac. TT That is misleading. You are perfectly entitled to possess such a rifle in UK, in full working order, as long as you have the necessary Firearm Certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 1 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2015 Thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 1 February , 2015 Share Posted 1 February , 2015 TT Very nice example, yes it would be be good to have a rifle representative of each nation. . Mike. The trouble is..representative of each nation, then each major type...then an interesting variation and a slightly rarer one.....where does one stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 1 February , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 February , 2015 An the collectors dilemma. For me German Commonwealth French and Usa only and only main infantry types. I think the hardest to source will be the 03 Springfield WW1 dated and the P17 in US calibre as opposed to a P14. Nice selection. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 1 February , 2015 Share Posted 1 February , 2015 The 1917 rifle was designated M1917, not P, although amongst factory workers who had been producing the P14 the incorrect appellation "P17" was in limited use. It should not be too difficult to find one in UK - M17s were, after all, sent over in large quantities during WW2. If it is deactivated that you are after there seems to be one here - http://antique-guns-replicas.armybazar.eu/uk/deactivated-guns/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 2 February , 2015 Share Posted 2 February , 2015 Nice selection. TT 20+ years in the making.... here is the list Gew 88 (Germany) 7,92mm Kar. 88 (Germany) 7,92mm Kar 98az (Germany) 7,92mm Gew 98 (Germany) 7,92mm M1895 Mannlicher (Austria Hungary) 7,92x57mm M1895 Mannlicher Carbine/Short Rifle (Austria Hungary) 7,92x57mm Mauser M1893 (Turkey) 7,92mm(conv) M1870/87/15 Verletti (Italy) 6.5mm (conv) M1891 Carcano (Italy) 6.5mm M1891 Carcarno T/S (Italy) 6.5mm M1891 Carcano Cavalry Carbine (Italy) 6.5mm M1905 (Type 38) Arisaka (Japan) 6.5mm M1905 (Type 38) Arisaka Carbine (Japan) 6.5mm M1903 Springfield (USA) .30-06 M1917 "Enfield" (USA) .30-06 M1889 Mauser (Belgium) 7.65mm M1889 Mauser Carbine (Belgium) 7.65mm M1891 Mosin Nagant (Russia- Remington) 7.62x54mm M1891 Mosin Nagant (Russia- Westinghouse) 7.62x54mm M1886/93 Lebel (France) 8mm Mle 07-15 Berthier (Turkish Forestry Carbine) 8mm PLACE HOLDER This is where an 07-15 like yours would fit TT Mle 1892 Berthier Carbine (France) 8mm Mle 1916 Berthier Rifle (France) 8mm Mle 1916 Berthier Carbine (France) 8mm Not shown: M1905 Ross .303 (Canada) M1910 Ross .303 (Canada) M1903/14Mannlicher-Schoenauer (Greece 6.5mm) and a few Enfields 1853-1988 (UK various) No Serbian rifles, no Russian Berdans, French rolling block, Portuguese rifle etc and then there are all those others.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 February , 2015 Share Posted 2 February , 2015 And surely a Patt.14, Chris.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 2 February , 2015 Share Posted 2 February , 2015 My recently acquired Lebel (need to use a white sheet as a background!): Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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