DrB Posted 5 November , 2004 Share Posted 5 November , 2004 I have been collecting militaria for several years and for the last twenty or so, branched out to Canadian, ANZAC and other Commonwealth and colonial stuff. The question I forward is this: Are there any indications of CEF, WWI badges being restruck and offered as forgeries? The post WWI stuff is pretty obvious as it is tinsely and shoddily made but the WWI stuff? How about the ANZAC things as well? Most Canadian and New Zealand badges have the makers initials on the reverse, but are these badges phony as well? Thanks in advance for your comments. DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 5 November , 2004 Share Posted 5 November , 2004 I' m no great expert on badge collecting, but from years of interest and or collecting various militaria: There is a market for restrikes for virtually any British and Commonwealth units; some were actually made using the original dies - and occasionally near-enough original metals - and are virtually undetectable ecept for experience and direct contact with them. I should imagine that ANZAC stuff in particular, tending to be more fashionable in the international market than most British, Canadian and South African badges, are more prone to forgery, but that does not discount that these others are equally vulnerable to forgers. I believe that some even got large stocks of original, maker-marked suspension pins/bars to affix onto new badges. Cheap restrikes can look glitzy, as you say, for either they are brand-new looking, very lightweight, of obviously incorrect metal or else poorly moulded. As with anything, particulary if buying on-line, best to stick to established dealers or collectors who have reputation to maintain, whether it be on ebay, a shop or similar. Also, they should state that they are selling a genuine (or refund the) badge in their advert: most 'in the know' should say so automatically since fakery is so endemic. I am sure Harry-Roger-Bernard-Betts would be able to offer more specific advice regarding badges. I wonder whether anyone has yet forged a Forum badge? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 5 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2004 For Richard, Although undecided and controversial, I actually have one! Let it go to you offered for only one time "Special Deal!" DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 5 November , 2004 Share Posted 5 November , 2004 From experience with NZ badges, most of the good quality stuff was struck by JR Gaunt of London. On most of the WW1 and pre WW1, you will find the little embossed square bearing his name. However post war, there were a lot of local strikes of the same badge. This was partly for economy reasons, and it was also a bit easier than sending to the UK for badges. Many of the restrikes are of the same quality as the originals and the dies for many Regiments can still be found here and there. To the best of my knowledge, there is no major market for forged badges in NZ. If it's not a Gaunt, it's probably a post war restrike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 6 November , 2004 Share Posted 6 November , 2004 I recently won (on eBay) a New Zealand 'Machine Gun Specialists' cap badge (identical in most respects to an ordinary English MGC cap badge, but with the addition of 'NZ' betwixt the receivers of the crossed Vickers, and the three-lug arrangement) which looked good in the photographs, but proved to be an excellent restrike upon close examination. Even the brazing on the lugs was quite good, and the lugs themselves were the correct shape and thickness. Fortunately the dealer did not make a fuss about refunding my money and postage. A story with a happy ending, for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 As per discussion, 1st Canterbury Regiment Badge, used from 1911 to 1964. From the left, 1. Gaunt Badge 2. Local Restrike 3. Local restrike brass only. There are minor differences in all three of these badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 The 10th North Otago Regiment. Cap badge used from 1911 to 1921. From the left. 1. Gaunt Badge 2. Local Restrike dark finish 3. Local Restrike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 And finaly! 11th Taranaki Rifles Regiment. Cap Badge used from 1911 to after WW2. From the left 1. Gaunt Badge 2. Local restrike. 3. Local restrike. Lots of little differences when looked at closely. Incidently I was offered a die for the 1st Cant Regt about ten years ago. It would have cost me NZ $40.00 at the time. I often kick myself for not purchasing it as it would have made a great paper weight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Very handsome variations. Here is a 14th South Otago Rifles by Gaunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 And a close-up of the maker's plaque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Here is a badge that DrB might like to see, and that perhaps Captain Dave could let us have his thoughts on. It is (or should be) the 28th Maori Battalion (perhaps in its Western Front Pioneer Bn reincarnation, following Gallipoli) but the letters 'NC' are not present. The badge has all of the hallmarks of a locally-cast 'bazaar' piece. My knowledge of New Zealand badges is sketchy, at best. Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 And here is the back. My apologies for the poor quality of these photographs. It is very late and I am very tired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 What you have there is the New Zealand (Maori) Pioneer Battalion badge as worn from Sept 1917 to April 1919. It's not the 28th Bn badge as that was a WW2 unit and wore the universal Onward Badge the same as most other NZ units. Initialy the badge that formed the basis for your one was issued (with slightly different collar dogs) to A and B Coy of the Maori Battalion. It also had NZNC for New Zealand Native Contingent at the base. However following Gallipoli they were reformed as a Pioneer Bn and a totally new badge issued. There were two Maori Coys in the Bn, but by 1917, it was a totally Maori unit, hence the reintroduction of the badge you have. The only difference is it has NZ at the base, as opposed to NZNC. I don't think it would be a forgery, but I suppose you never know! It certainly looks like a NZ badge from the rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 My apologies for the poor quality of these photographs. It is very late and I am very tired. Au contraire, Bert. These photos are excellent, very crisp, nice plain background. What kind of camera are you using? Peter in Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 7 November , 2004 Share Posted 7 November , 2004 Captain Dave V. many thanks - I had a 'good feeling' about this badge, but the absence of the 'NC' had made me slightly suspicious. I have a few (Great War period) New Zealand badges that were made by firms in Australia (e.g., Angus & Coote). Did New Zealand have no insignia makers at all, at that time? And (here I must apologize for taking advantage of yr good nature and piling on so many questions) is there any describable difference betwixt a Great War 'Onward' badge, and a 2nd NZEF 'Onward' badge? Broznitsky Oh, the camera is all right (an older Sony Mavica that takes both a 128mb card and floppy disks), it's the user that is N.B.G. - tired eyes, trembling hands, and all of the other advantages of old age, what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 A pleasure to pass on info. As for the question pertaining to insignia makers in NZ. There were firms able to do it, but I believe the reason for purchasing from the UK was to do with the NZ Army being properly established and arranged along British lines in 1911. Prior to this it was a hodge podge collection, I think this was a way of standardising the uniforms and insignia as well as legitimicicing the badges that were to be issued with the formation of the Territorial Force. Secondly a Great War NZ Badge was the badge of the British Section of the NZ Expiditionary Force. It was struck with Laurel Leaves rising towards the crown. This was changed in 1915 to Fern Leaves. The 2 NZEF Badge (and the one still in use) has Fern leaves rising to the crown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 8 November , 2004 Share Posted 8 November , 2004 Once again, v. many thanks. Nothing like local intelligence - a few words are much more illuminating than three or four pages of print written at a remove. At the risk of imposing upon your kindness, I should like to ask you to consider posting a photograph of the varieties of the 'Onward' badges that you mention. Entirely at yr convenience and pleasure, of course. I know I should be extremely interested, and no doubt DrB and many others would as well. With thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 10 November , 2004 Share Posted 10 November , 2004 To be honest I only have one set of the Onward Badge as most of my collection centers around WW1. However. I have seen the badges and am aware of a number of different casts, the oldest ref I can find to a WW1 badge is here. This is meant to be a WW1 postcard with the General Service Bage represented. It didnt change much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Dave Posted 10 November , 2004 Share Posted 10 November , 2004 And a nice shot of the set from the WW2 era. The Onward badge is still used today by Officer Cadets and the Staff of the officer Cadet Shcool. I am unsure if they are the brass ones that require polishing, They are also used on the Lemon Squeezers for ceremonail occassions, Again I don't know if they just issued out old WW2 badges or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bert Posted 11 November , 2004 Share Posted 11 November , 2004 Captain Dave V. many thanks for the photographs posted. I am greatly interested in New Zealand badges, and I know many others are as well, so any time you have the camera out, you might keep us in mind. Once again, many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrB Posted 11 November , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2004 For Bert, Capt Dave and Harry Betts....many thanks for the information. Looks like I will have to re-catalog my collection! DrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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