lebel cruciform bayonet - unit marking 9 K 71

[cooper]

I have had this item in my possession for a good number of years but to date i have never deciphered the marking in the groove along the spine of the hilt. It is 9 K 71.

The bayonet handle is of german silver and it is with quillon.

If anyone has any ideas i would be interest in hearing them.

Many thanks

Cooper

[trajan]

I have had this item in my possession for a good number of years but to date i have never deciphered the marking in the groove along the spine of the hilt. It is 9 K 71.

The bayonet handle is of german silver and it is with quillon.

One of the great mysteries, it seems, of Lebel bayonet studies... I have one myself like yours, in the same format, but using a 'script' letter. If I have read the script letter properly then it is an x, but it has not been properly stamped and so I can't be certain. Assuming it is, then the serial is '1 X 144'.

I have seen a very few references to these serials, although I suspect that there are probably more examples around than have been reported: most people don't look that carefully into the mortice slots, and at first sight these serials look like they are simply dings in the metalwork... That aside, as far as I know - but on very limited evidence - these particular serials are only found in the mortice slots of the silver-handled with quillon version. Some collectors think that they are German in origin, others not. My objection to them being German serials is that the format of yours and of mine does not fit with any of the serial-numbering systems used by the German army. There are, apparently, although I have not seen one, regular-length Lebel bayonets that do have German serial numbers - but these are where you would expect them, on the crossguard.

Trajan

EDIT: Just spotted your second posting - you can delete that!

[cooper]

Thanks Trajan for your reply. It certainly is a mystery.

I can say that i do not think its a bayonet used by the german forces, simply because of the item history, although you never know as the markings could be 9 Kompanie 71st Regiment maybe?

It was found whilst walking and mountain biking the battlefields around Verdun around 20 years ago. It was found more or less laying on the surface in one of tracks of Cote 304.

I can take a pic and post it to show the script if it helps you understand your markings a little better?

Thanks,

Cooper

[trajan]

I can take a pic and post it to show the script if it helps you understand your markings a little better?

Yes please! I forgot to ask - is it a full length one?

The example I show below, reproduced from http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?352082-Lebel-Bayonetfor reference, is on a German-shortened Lebel with a 46. cm overall length, the so-called Seitengewehr 102(f), and as you can see, it's '8 V 192'. I don't have a photograph of mine yet (which is on a regular length Lebel), but the letter is certainly not a 'K', and so these don't look to be 'Company' marks. I have a feeling, no more, no less, that because these marks have been found on the German shortened versions that's why people thought they were indeed German markings.

[msdt]

Hi Cooper, Trajan,

I have some examples, and have attached some photos.

I also hoped that these were German markings when I first acquired examples. After I met Roy Williams (the author of "The Collectors Book of German Bayonets") I posed the question to him. He took the question to France and Belgium on a trip, and discussed with the collectors there - they were all sure that these are French arsenal marks.

I have the following examples:

(in the mortice slot)

1886 1 T 153

1886 4 R 163

1886 1 Z 7 (Z on scabbard)

(top of tang)

1874 1 R 169 (R on scabbard - both R's cursive)

1874 3 H 138 (H on scabbard - both H's cursive)

(in the mortice slot)

1866 9 Z 178 (Z on scabbard - both Z's cursive)

Note that where the scabbards are recorded above, they all have matching serial numbers to the bayonets (even the one modded for an 88 Commision rifle).

All the marks fascinate me, so I always pay attention to them. One day we will know what these exactly mean.

Cheers,

Tony

[msdt]

Was wrong about the cursive Z on the 1886, the 1874's and 1866 are cursive letters though.

Tony

[cooper]

Great info, Arsenal marks it is then. Interesting enough but i must admit i would love them to be french unit marks. I have gone through my records and have found where i found the bayonet. It was not cote 304, it was Bois de Vaux Chapitre. I have marked on a map where preciseley. The french 71st regiment fought here in 1916. It would have married up nicely.

That being said the item is a very poignant and i will treasure it all the same.

Some great bayonets pictured by the way. A great collection.

Cooper

[trajan]

I have seen a very few references to these serials, although I suspect that there are probably more examples around than have been reported: most people don't look that carefully into the mortice slots, and at first sight these serials look like they are simply dings in the metalwork...

I have some examples, and have attached some photos.

I also hoped that these were German markings when I first acquired examples. After I met Roy Williams (the author of "The Collectors Book of German Bayonets") I posed the question to him. He took the question to France and Belgium on a trip, and discussed with the collectors there - they were all sure that these are French arsenal marks.

I have the following examples: ...1886 ... 1874 ...

All the marks fascinate me, so I always pay attention to them. One day we will know what these exactly mean.

Cheers Tony!

As I said, I thought that there might be a few more around than is on record - and you have quite a few there! And it is interesting that they are on 1874's as well... Arsenal marks seems a reasonable explanation, but if so, then perhaps they should be more common. Perhaps this thread will turn out a few more examples?

Best,

Trajan