RAMC weapons.

[Muerrisch]

I now own the Field Service Manual 1914, Army Medical Service Expeditionary Force.

Interesting to note that it is drawn up "on the basis of a campaign in a civilized country .......", and that, whereas RAMC officers including medical officers were armed with pistol, 12 rounds and sword, I can see no provision for weapons for Other Ranks except the "swords, staff" for WOs and Staff ranks held at the base. This despite the Geneva Convention allowing RAMC to defend their patients.

I also looked at the loads of wagons, again no rifles.

Given that RAMC men were provided with basic musketry training, I am surprised at the above. Perhaps the rifles would be issued for "savage" conflicts, and/or perhaps I have missed something?

Can anyone put me straight please?

I should add that I am up to speed regarding the RIGHT to bear arms and of self-defence, as at:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=141738

[Khaki]

There was an earlier post with photographs of Italian? medical personnel carrying small arms, rifles I think, the comment that I was interested in was that the arms were allowed to protect their patients not only from enemy (which I expected) but also from wild animals and I am thinking 'bandits' as well. I tend to forget that the Great War in Africa and other areas was very different from F&F.

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Grumpy,

Personally, I have never seen a photograph of an armed R.A.M.C. man or heard of weapons being carried by them, quite the contrary given that many declared pacifists elected to enlist in the R.A.M.C.

There may have been rare exceptions, for example while an R.A.M.C. officer was travelling through hostile desolate areas such as the North West Frontier, they may have carried a revolver during the journey ?

Regards,

LF

[Muerrisch]

The booklet I quote expected/ required each officer, foot or mounted, to arm himself with a revolver "to take Government ammunition" and was then issued with 12 rounds. Definitely a grey area.

I am now looking for a RAMC officer wearing said pistol and sword!

[EastSurrey]

The diary of Captain George Pirie, RAMC, serving with 9/E. Surrey,recently published as 'Frontline Medic' has the following entry for 11 November 1916 after he returned from leave 'The new O.C., Col.[Thomas] Swanton has been making himself objectionable and seems to be loathed all round. He ordered my stretcher-bearers to carry rifles and bayonets so I had to see him about it, but he gave in to me and was quite decent. I bar anyone interfering with my department.'

Michael

[Muerrisch]

Thank you. Of course SBs were not RAMC [except in Field Hospitals etc] but even so that is an unusual event to record.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I am now looking for a RAMC officer wearing said pistol and sword!

Here is a photo of a wounded RAMC Major carrying a Cartridge Pouch, but no Pistol Case.

Regards,

LF

[Magnumbellum]

Personally, I have never seen a photograph of an armed R.A.M.C. man or heard of weapons being carried by them, quite the contrary given that many declared pacifists elected to enlist in the R.A.M.C.

There may have been rare exceptions, for example while an R.A.M.C. officer was travelling through hostile desolate areas such as the North West Frontier, they may have carried a revolver during the journey ?

My understanding is that RAMC ORs would not ordinarily carry weapons, but weapons might be provided in the event of a possible attack. Certainly, this presented a problem in WW2, when a few conscientious objectors were admitted to the RAMC in fufilment of an exemption from combatant service. Officers complained of the personnel logistics involved in noting which ORs could be issued with weapons if needed and those who could not, as guaranteed non-combatants, and eventually the RAMC ceased to admit conscientious objectors.

Very few men were admitted to the RAMC as COs in WW1, so the problem may not have arisen. The matter of men enlisting before conscription as informal non-combatants has been discussed elsewhere on GWF.

[Khaki]

I would think that in the African campaigns a field hospital would be major attraction to carnivores, a rifle would be mandatory in my opinion.

khaki

[squirrel]

FWIW - RAMC Training Manual 1911

para 249 "While the general principles described are applicable to warfare in countries not signatory to the Genenva Convention, there is this essential difference, that sick and wounded cannot be left on the field to be cared for by the enemy. The medical units may require an armed escort, and the medical personnel may have to carry arms for the defence of the sick and wounded in its charge and for its own protection".

para 366 The portions of Infantry Training in use in the Royal Army Medical Corps are those dealing with : - Definitions; Squad Drill (without arms*); Company Drill (without arms*).

* Except for Musketry Instruction

[Muerrisch]

Thanks people. Very few if any armed, seemingly.

I wonder about WW II though, versus the Japs?

[Muerrisch]

to amuse:

One wonders how many glasses of port or brandy got to the other ranks .............

And how many bottles of stout were "broken"

[kevinrowlinson]

The booklet I quote expected/ required each officer, foot or mounted, to arm himself with a revolver "to take Government ammunition" and was then issued with 12 rounds. Definitely a grey area.

I am now looking for a RAMC officer wearing said pistol and sword!

I get the impression that quite a few officers were going overseas without the required kit, given the number of ACIs that were published, until eventually they published ACI of 1837 of 1917 which also had an Appendix giving a list that must be followed. Obviously it is impossible to say how many actually stuck to it.

The list does require every officer to have a pistol, but it was one item that could be obtained from the Army Ordnance Department and there was also a "get out of jail" card;

Officers of the RAMC, ASC, AVC, AOD and Labour, Transportation and Forestry officers did not need to take compass, binoculars or telescope, PH Helmet and small box respirator.

Only mounted officers of Cavalry and Yeomanry required a sword and scabbard.

If the caption is to be believed then perhaps one of the officers in photo 3 here, http://wellcomelibrary.org/player/b18357015#?asi=0&ai=2&z=0.1075%2C0.1451%2C0.5358%2C0.3636 , is wearing a pistol. Also one seems to be wearing binoculars which supposedly wasn't required (unless it is something else).

Kevin

[Muerrisch]

Superb, and some cracking fine photos on that site including an RAMC det. with bandolier equipment.

Very many thanks indeed.

[EastSurrey]

Regimental stretcher bearers did not always continue to be such. For instance, Robert Lambert, one of Pirie's stretcher bearers in 9/E.Surrey, was killed as member of a machine gun team on 15/11/1916.

Michael

[MikB]

Dr. Watson's military service probably predated the formation of the RAMC by a few years, but Holmes frequently enjoined him to 'bring your Army revolver' on their expeditions from 221b Baker Street...

Regards,

MikB

[deadin]

Here's one that belonged to a Doctor assigned to the 9th FA attached to the Coldstream Guards June '15 to Jan '19.

[Muerrisch]

Thank you ...... great image

[Beerhunter]

Judging by those acceptance marks, one of the "Triple Locks" bought by the British Government 1915. Quite a rare gun. Around five thousand made but we will never know how many were destroyed after 1997.

BTW, RAMC was armed to the teeth in my day. Mostly Brownings and SMGs.