Hanniballector Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 I know this pattern fits on the Berthier 1907-15 but is it the correct one ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 10 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Who are the maker marks for please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Yes it is correct for period and gun. Is the later pattern with quillon removed in 1915. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Yes and No! The handle is brass, and so post-1914, which is ok, and it has no quillon with the serial number where the quillon would have hung from, the quillon being dropped (IIRC) sometime in 1915, and it has the right press-stud for that model, and so (IIRC) this is a Mle. 1886-15 bayonet. Not at home and so can do nowt on the markings except that they are factory and inspector markings Trajan PS TT's answer came in as I was doing this - nice to have the 1915 date confirmed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Should have added why the 'Yes and No' - this is the 1915 version so (depending on when your rifle was made) what you might want to look for is quillon version of the Lebel, with hook and a 'silver' handle, as that would have been made before 1915. Mind you, what you have there is a very nice piece - with a straight blade and in good condition! Check the frog label on the scabbard - there might be matching serial numbers! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Here you go! The pre-1915 Lebel at the top, the 1915 Lebel below, showing the lack of the hook but also the type of poussoir (catch-button) found with this. Some of the pre-1914 Lebel's with silver handles had their quillon's removed (like the UK P.1907 hooked quillons), as did some of those made with the post-1914 brass handles, and the secure way to tell one of these from a 1915 version is that it will have the pre-1915 catch-button... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Should have added why the 'Yes and No' - this is the 1915 version so (depending on when your rifle was made) what you might want to look for is quillon version of the Lebel, with hook and a 'silver' handle, as that would have been made before 1915. Mind you, what you have there is a very nice piece - with a straight blade and in good condition! Check the frog label on the scabbard - there might be matching serial numbers! Trajan Trajan. I have one of these you mention with a "silver" handle numbers match on the scabbard and the bayonet, worth anything ? Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Trajan. I have one of these you mention with a "silver" handle numbers match on the scabbard and the bayonet, worth anything ? Ralph. I don't think we are allowed to talk about things like that on GWF You would have to look around, but certainly examples of the older hooked 'silver' handled type with scabbard with matching serials are not that common... Now, if your 'In the living room' location was in Turkey, then I'd PM you! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 10 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Hi Trajan I posted the rifle a few weeks ago. Bertheir Mle 1907-15 dated 16 . You posted some stuff on the type/ pattern of bayonet and wished me luck then lol. Thank you ! Theirs seems quite a lot of the earlier 1886 with quillion about on various sites as well as the French Gras 1874 but the 1886/15 seems a little bit more difficult to find, so when I found this one a thought it was a good idea to get ! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 I posted the rifle a few weeks ago. Bertheir Mle 1907-15 dated 16 . ... Well, you have the appropriate one! A bayonet made in 1915+ for a 1916 dated rifle... As you (and many others!) will know, I have limited knowledge of rifles - but let us all know when and if it fits. The catch-button might be a bit stiff - there is often rust around the steel tooth that fits onto the bayonet - but WD 40 should sort that out. BTW, does the bayonet serial number match that on the scabbard? If so, an even nicer bayonet to have! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ServiceRumDiluted Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Am I right in thinking that the 'silver' metal was called (and indeed was)German alloy? Hence its rapid fall from favour in 1915 and the subsequent adoption of brass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 10 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2015 No not matched ? but fits on the rifle fine. Release catch working perfectly. Might buy the quillion type aswel but not sure as I'm thinking of buying a gew 98 model 1898/05 with leather scabbard, manufactured by Ernst Busch Solingen 1918. Pretty good condition. Not sure on the price £175 ? Any suggestions ? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 10 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2015 I think a lot of the reasons for using a diffrent metal,and dropping parts like the quillion came down to costs, as the war raged on and weapon production increased. It was simply cheaper ! I'm sure some of the more academic people on here will have the full story lol ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralphjd Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Cheers Trajan, had it for years only cost me a few quid, just wondered if it accrued a bit , if I get banned such is life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Am I right in thinking that the 'silver' metal was called (and indeed was)German alloy? Hence its rapid fall from favour in 1915 and the subsequent adoption of brass? I think a lot of the reasons for using a diffrent metal,and dropping parts like the quillion came down to costs, as the war raged on and weapon production increased. It was simply cheaper ! I'm sure some of the more academic people on here will have the full story lol yes, something like German alloy or nickel silver or maillechort - can't remember the technical name off-hand and away from library. Not so much that it fell out of favour - it came from Germany and supplies stopped coming in late 1914, and so the use of 'brass'! BUT, there has been a discussion on this topic elsewhere on GWF, pointing out that there may well have been enough of this 'silver' metal around in stock to use for these French bayonets into 1915. (Let's hope the academic types don't get going otherwise it will never end!) Cheers Trajan, had it for years only cost me a few quid, just wondered if it accrued a bit , if I get banned such is life. Well, certainly a bit more than whenever a few years ago was! These ones are rather neglected by most generalised GW collectors - just like the Belgian ones - except by specialists. Obviously, though, pre-1915 and clear and matching numbers (bayonet and scabbard) will make a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 11 January , 2015 Share Posted 11 January , 2015 Here's one of mine with additional ventilation. I have always wondered if it was attached to the rifle when this happened or.... Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 11 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2015 You would like to think so as the muzzle ring has been snapped, quite possibley by the impact of the round. Quite rare to find I should imagine as well ! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 11 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2015 Well, you have the appropriate one! A bayonet made in 1915+ for a 1916 dated rifle... Hi Trajan can you shed any light on where it was manafactured ? Nick As you (and many others!) will know, I have limited knowledge of rifles - but let us all know when and if it fits. The catch-button might be a bit stiff - there is often rust around the steel tooth that fits onto the bayonet - but WD 40 should sort that out. BTW, does the bayonet serial number match that on the scabbard? If so, an even nicer bayonet to have! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 January , 2015 Share Posted 11 January , 2015 My catalogue notes say that the maker-marks for the Épée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 Modifié 1915 - which is what you have - were placed on the bottom of the crossguard in front of the bayonet serial number, using French 'script' or 'cursive' lettering, and that the three makers and their marks were: Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) - A, B, C, D, E Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Étienne (MAS) - F, G, H, J, K, L, M, N, P, QManufacture Nationale d'Armes de Tulle (MAT) - R,S,T,U,V BUT, your bayonet seems to have TWO letters in front of the number... The second seems to be an 'J', the first possibly a poorly-stamped 'F'? The other mark, on the 'blade' - C&P - is thought to be a private contractor's mark supplying these to the factories - but nobody knows who that is... There should also be an inspector's mark somewhere on the blade, a letter within a circle. Just a thought - if the French were using private contractors for the 'blades', then maybe that explains the double script letter before the serial number? The handle and 'blade' being put together at, let's say, Saint Étienne (and so the 'F' and 'J'), the double script indicating that this is a composite piece? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 11 January , 2015 Share Posted 11 January , 2015 I have a 1886/93/15 with push catch, German silver hilt and matched numbers to baynet and scabbard housed in 1915 dated frog in brown leather. Two letters before the numbers is the norm and do not mean composite makers. They used all the letters for the fist batch eg A. 1 to 99 B 100 to 199 Then eg AB 200 to 299 BA 300 to 399 etc The above is for illustrative purposes only. Rather like the Germans adding a letter after the serial number indicating a new run of numbers. I think yours is MAS as indicated above. Mine is MAT (Tulle) as it is TR 64550. Regards TT Ps all the above practice is true for the Lebel Rifles so I am assuming the same for bayonets from the three state arsenals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 11 January , 2015 Share Posted 11 January , 2015 A. 1 to 99 B 100 to 199 Then eg AB 200 to 299 BA 300 to 399 etc Thanks TT - I had wondered if the French might have been using that type of system but I thought that it was only used by the Germans in WW2 and it never occurred to me that the French might have been using it earlier. If the system was used by the French on their rifles then it makes sense it was also used on bayonets. We live and learn! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 11 January , 2015 Share Posted 11 January , 2015 Of course the French like all other combatant nations were masters of salvage and re issue. My German Silver hilt may once have been married to a curved quillon? The hilt is seperate from the blade and catch etc. Many French rifles have forced matched serial numbers. I mean the serial number on a late barrel matched to the stock of an earlier made rifle with a bolt having had its first serial number erased and stamped to match the stock it now sits on. In late 14 the French were sending 3 to 4 thousand Lebels daily to the arsenals for refurb and using good parts from damaged guns. I assume the same for bayonets too. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 11 January , 2015 Share Posted 11 January , 2015 Re the French arsenals use of double letters as production runs got high, these can also be found on both the 1874 Gras and 1866 Chassepot bayonets. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 11 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2015 Yes Trajan I think it is a f, not sure about the second. I had a look on the blade for any other marks but nothing ! Thank you for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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