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Remembered Today:

Collar Dogs


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Hi all,

After some help with my Scottish WW1 ancestors. They are all O/Rs and served with the Gordon's, Black Watch, RSF, Royal Scots, Cameronians, Fife & Forfar Yeomanry, Scottish Horse, Argyll & Sutherlands, KOSB and Seaforths (almost a full house!). My question is would any have them worn collar dogs? They all joined post the start of the war.

Slightly off WW1 but I have another man who fought in the Boer War with the 2 Gordons - can anyone tell me what helmut and badge he would have worn?

Many thanks

Bryan

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His collar badge was the Indian Tiger and his head dress was a feather bonnet in full dress, and glengarry, or later Tam-o-Shanter as his undress cap.

In South Africa Colonial or 'Foreign Service' helmets were issued and worn initially but these were soon replaced by 'slouch hats' of the type that later became associated with Australian National dress. The colour image of khaki depicts a Gordon Highlander early in that war.

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Hi , and many thanks for the reply. Is the picture with the collar dogs WW1 era or before? All the family pictures I have (and there are not many) don't show anyone wearing collar dogs, I assumed because they were all service or territorial men then they would only have the one uniform and that would be basic in terms of badges. Thanks for the Boer War info.

Bryan

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Hi , and many thanks for the reply. Is the picture with the collar dogs WW1 era or before? All the family pictures I have (and there are not many) don't show anyone wearing collar dogs, I assumed because they were all service or territorial men then they would only have the one uniform and that would be basic in terms of badges. Thanks for the Boer War info.

Bryan

Collar badges were not worn by the regular battalions on khaki until the early 1920s and the B&W image is post WW1.

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Ah, as I suspected. Many thanks.

Bryan

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Ah, as I suspected. Many thanks.

Bryan

Its not that clear cut. A great many of the war-raised battalions did wear collar badges. It was the regulars and to some degree Territorials who generally did not.

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Just when I thought I was getting the hang of this! Guess I need to quote battalion numbers? I take it it was done at batallion level?

Bryan

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Just when I thought I was getting the hang of this! Guess I need to quote battalion numbers? I take it it was done at batallion level?

Bryan

Yes it was done at battalion level and far more common in the 'Service' (war-raised) battalions than any of the others.

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His collar badge was the Indian Tiger and his head dress was a feather bonnet in full dress, and glengarry, or later Tam-o-Shanter as his undress cap.

In South Africa Colonial or 'Foreign Service' helmets were issued and worn initially but these were soon replaced by 'slouch hats' of the type that later became associated with Australian National dress. The colour image of khaki depicts a Gordon Highlander early in that war.

Frogsmile, in the artist's depiction of the Gordon corporal (post #2) the subject appears to be wearing a cover over the sporran cantle. I had never seen that before. Do you have any other images of this feature?

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Frogsmile, in the artist's depiction of the Gordon corporal (post #2) the subject appears to be wearing a cover over the sporran cantle. I had never seen that before. Do you have any other images of this feature?

No I am sorry gordon92, I do not have any more such images, but the artist's depiction is so precise that I imagine it was taken from a photograph(s) in the regimental archives, as he clearly would not have made such an article up as a flight of fancy. I suspect that the cover was added to the cantles after practical and costly demonstrations of the Boer farmers' superior marksmanship.

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No I am sorry gordon92, I do not have any more such images, but the artist's depiction is so precise that I imagine it was taken from a photograph(s) in the regimental archives, as he clearly would not have made such an article up as a flight of fancy. I suspect that the cover was added to the cantles after practical and costly demonstrations of the Boer farmers' superior marksmanship.

Wasn't this role fulfilled by the Kilt Apron? (as per the photo you also posted of the men marching) which appear to have been very common in the 2nd Anglo-Boer war.

I wonder if there aren't flights of fancy involved here

The soldier also appears to have cartridge loops above his KD Jacket pockets, which would be unusual...and not an official pattern with which I am familiar (although I have seen "safari jackets" with this arrangement)

and finally he is armed with a CLLE (not introduced until 1908 but the foresight protector and large wheel adjuster on the rear-sight are diagnostic)

So I am not sure how far I would trust this image as an accurate representation of that level of detail - do you know the source?

Chris

BTW -- THIS WEBSITE has lots of pictures of Gordons during the Boer War some artistic some photographic

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Wasn't this role fulfilled by the Kilt Apron? (as per the photo you also posted of the men marching) which appear to have been very common in the 2nd Anglo-Boer war.

I wonder if there aren't flights of fancy involved here

The soldier also appears to have cartridge loops above his KD Jacket pockets, which would be unusual...and not an official pattern with which I am familiar (although I have seen "safari jackets" with this arrangement)

and finally he is armed with a CLLE (not introduced until 1908 but the foresight protector and large wheel adjuster on the rear-sight are diagnostic)

So I am not sure how far I would trust this image as an accurate representation of that level of detail - do you know the source?

Chris

BTW -- THIS WEBSITE has lots of pictures of Gordons during the Boer War some artistic some photographic

I think the colour image perhaps shows a kilted man from before the Boer War, as the jackets with cartridge loops above the chest pockets are of Indian pattern and, again, not a flight of fancy. I am unsure as to the precise date that kilt aprons began to be worn, but you are correct that they were worn during the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902.

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Hi,

My man in the 2 Gordon's joined Jan 98 and landed in S.Africa via Egypt Sep 99. Spent 1 year and 125 days there. Awarded the S.Africa Medal and clasps for Elanslaagte and Defence of Ladysmith. Came home for a year then went to E.Indies for almost 2 years. I have a lugged Gordon's cap badge (broad leaves) which could fit with the slouch hat? He then transferred to the KOSB and went to Burma for over 2 years. Demobbed after 12 years then rejoined the 4 Royal Scots for WW1 when upon they promoted him to Sgt within days! Died from a hear attack at Catterick on duty 1916.

Bryan

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I think the colour image perhaps shows a kilted man from before the Boer War, as the jackets with cartridge loops above the chest pockets are of Indian pattern and, again, not a flight of fancy. I am unsure as to the precise date that kilt aprons began to be worn, but you are correct that they were worn during the 2nd Anglo/Boer War 1899-1902.

If pre Boer war, that would make the rifle even more inaccurate.

Do you have any photos of the India pattern KD with loops? I have a KD in storage which has the remnants of loops which I always thought were theatrical add-ons. Now I will need to dig it out and look.

Bryan,

Then your chap served alongside my Great Great Grandfather at Elanslaagte and during the Defence of Ladysmith, He was discharged after 21 years service (at Peshawar) and his reserve commitment ended in July 1914. He reenlisted in Aug 14 but was discharged after a couple of months.

Chris

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The thread at

 

has a list, incomplete, of those infantry regiments with at least one battalion known to favour a collar badge during our period.

Worth a look.

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Grumpy - many thanks for the list, will look more closely at the Cameronians.

Chris - interesting that your gg grandfather has the same medal clasp combination! Do you have any artefacts from his service. I have nothing from mine, James May, who came from Kincardineshire (St.Cyrus). Incidentally his cousin was a conscientious objector in WW1 who died whilst "undertaking war work in a quarry".

Bryan

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Bryan, in addition to Elandslaggte and Defence of Ladysmith he also had Laings Nek and Belfast clasps for the QSA. He also had the KSA medal These disappeared from the family many moons ago but I keep my eyes peeled (he was James Milne 2298)

His service record survives so I have a copy of that, I have a couple of pictures of him (after discharge he worked at the Gordon Highlanders Club in Aberdeen). On the 13th of August 1914 he enlisted in the 1/4th Bn Gordons (with his stepson my grandfather) but he was discharged after 70days (Para 106 XI TF regs) at the end of Oct.

I also have his original parchment discharge certificate from the regulars and a certificate showing his education, so I am quite lucky in that respect.

Chris

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If pre Boer war, that would make the rifle even more inaccurate.

Do you have any photos of the India pattern KD with loops? I have a KD in storage which has the remnants of loops which I always thought were theatrical add-ons. Now I will need to dig it out and look.

Chris

I have seen quite a number of B&W photos of the jacket in old publications and many colour renditions by artists, but I do not have any digital images I am afraid. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the jackets existed and were issued. The loops were a result of an Indian musketry culture of having a 10 round easily accessible 'ready reserve' of ammunition for single shot long arms. Originally associated with the Snider and then Martini-Henry, when the first magazine fed rifle, the Lee-Metford was introduced, it was decided that a magazine slide would close off access to the breech and rounds would be fed manually for most musketry requirements. The slide would only be drawn back and the magazine feed used in extremis. Twenty individual rounds of .303 'ready' ammunition were provided in loops on the jacket, ten above each of the chest pockets. The intent was that even when a man was separated from his field equipment and its enclosed, waxed packets of ammunition, he had 20 rounds of ready ammunition on his person. The last use of this jacket seems to have been the late 1890s and it was not generally seen in the 2nd Boer War, when light canvas bandoliers of 50-rounds were used instead.

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Chris,

You certainly have more than me. My grandfathers record did not survive - Royal Scots and MGC, but I have his cap badges and a pickelhaube he brought back. When I was young he used to show us his uniform and tam o shanter! He lost 2 brother and another wounded. Alas his medals were stolen off my cousin, however I saw one had been sold on eBay but I was too late by a year!

So far I have traced 26 WW1 serving relatives, but so far only one Gordon man!

Many thanks for the information and good luck with the medals.

Bryan

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