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Remembered Today:

Allied Aircraft shot down {WARNING GRAPHIC}


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hi,

first pick from German photocard, real photo printed in many copies.

Cnock

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First one certainly has all the features of a death through burning... Poor chap...

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Those two are a bit different, but there are some great shots in the rest of the album.

Cheers Andy.

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  • 2 weeks later...

any ideas gleaning the tail fin number if it is a take down in Germany?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Shot down August 15, 1917?

Its on the Richtofen site but not a Red Baron Kill.

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15-8-15 Sgt Frederick Barnard 8 Sqn. I think they state that Nieuports were used by this Sqn andthe tail fin isnt a Nieuport?

16-8-16 Archibald Stanley Butler 25 Sqn buried at Bethune

16-8-16 Air Mech John Pearce (Wireless) buried at Corbie

15-8-17 Second Lieutenant Cyril Augustus Hargeaves 20 Royal Flying Corps 43rd Sqdn Nouex le Mines

d/o Clive Gould ing Moore 43 Sqn Arras memorial

d/o Pte Stanley Edward Pilbrow MM Huts Cemetery Ypres. 20 Sqn Lived at 1 Carlyle Sq Chelsea, seemingly well to do? Parents in service? and a Private (pre 22nd Manchester Regt)

d/o Air Mech W Addison and Lt H D B Snelgrove 43 Sqn both buried at Santes, not so far from Annay only two burials in churchyard

d/0 2nd Lt James Bonney Smith 43 Sqn (Black Watch) Arras Memorial

d/o Captain William Gordon Pender MC 40 Sqn Arras mem

more shortly

.

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The 2 aircraft from 43 Sqn went down 41.8 km apart-I have been hunting that tail fin all morning and am still scratching my head. It looks like an early model but I cant find that teardrop design with inverted rudder, unless rudder has flipped?

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40 sqn were flying Nieuport 17. 43 Sqn 1.2 Strutters! The tail fin is upside down not inverted as I thought. Mannock VCs squadron maybe? And 40 and 43 Sqn losses match the date....

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Snelgrove and Addison? A1079 Sop 1.1/2 Strutter

Throw into the mix FE2D which shows unusual tail shape 20 sqn Pilbrow had flown these as observer? But buried at Huts no record of Lt. Hargreaves flying one?

Clive Goulding Moore flew 1.1/5 Strutter

A8294

Lieut. CLIVE GOULDING MOORE, R.F.C. and R. Fus., who was posted as missing on August 15th, 1917, and is now reported to have been killed on that date while flying over the German lines, was the son of Mr. R. E. Moore, barrister, of the Middle Temple, and 42, Acacia Road, and Mrs. Moore. He was educated at Loudoun House School, N.W., and Radley College, whence he was to have passed on to Trinity College, Cambridge. But on the outbreak of war (which occurred on his eighteenth birthday) he at once decided to join the Army. After a few weeks in the Inns of Court O.T.C., he was granted a commission in the Royal Fusiliers, and went out to France with his battalion in November, 1915. After five months in the fighting line he contracted "diphtheria and was invalided home. On recovering, he joined the R.F.C., got his " wings," and again went out to France. He met his death when engaged on the dangerous task of flying low over the German lines to disperse with machine-gun fire the enemy troops massing for a counter- attack. He was a keen oarsman, and while at Radley won several rowing trophies, including the " silver sculls." He was a corporal in the school O.T.C. and an excellent shot, and both in 1913 and 10.14 was a member of the team. He was a corporal in the school O.T.C. and an excellent shot, and both in 1913 and 10.14 was a member of the team chosen to represent the school at Bisley.

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Definitely a Strutter - straight top edge to most of the fin, shape and rib arrangement of the elevators, also bottle jack for adjustable tailplane and the large wedge shaped fuel tank that was used on the 2-seat version. The Nieuport seems to have had a cut away lower segment to its engine cowling, which I've seen on pics of 60 Sqn machines, and a 110hp Le Rhone suggests that its a Type 16, 17 or 23.

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As this post has progressed so have the knowledgeable comments to aid Identification of these wrecks, not that I claim such in-depth knowledge but I am adding this image up as it offers a good identification aid to a mangled “pusher bird cage type” witness the triangular fin atop of the tail plane that show this is an FE2. (Stenciled on this fin is BP2061) Fuzancourt, Mai 1917 is hand written to the front of the card, but perhaps the writer means Bazancourt ?

Ian

post-83776-0-18777700-1423340395_thumb.j

Edited by Ian Simpson
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There's another photo of this crash (at least one other) - taken from directly opposite on the other side showing a single dead RFC airman on the ground. It's the first one I've personally seen with a potential date.

If the month is right, and it looks pretty much like a cataclysmic crash where both airmen were lost, then the BP number (Boulton Paul) would indicate three possibilities (all these details come out of my new book The Sky Their Battlefield II - see the link below):

On the 6th May 100 Squadron lost FE2b A5480: **SpNB left 10-10pm engine ftl EoL MIA (Lt TG Holmes KIA/2AM AW Ekins KIA) [but it doesn't look much like a night bomber to me]

On the 19th May 22 Squadron lost FE2b A5457: **LP combat with 5 HAs shot down in flames near GOUZEAUCOURT crash burnt (2Lt MS Goodban KIA/2Lt PHB Ward KIA) left 4-15pm for Fourth Army front [?unconfirmed 'Vickers' claim combat VILLERS GUISLAIN 4-20pm? Ltn FO Bernert Ja6] ['Vickers' claim ditto Vfw C Holler Ja6]

And then on 23rd May 20 Squadron lost FE2d A6467: **OP combat with HAs EoL MIA (2Lt RG Masson Can. KIA?/2Lt FW Evans DoW 26.5.1917) pilot later DoW as POW 24.5.1917?, Ja28 ['FE' claim combat WARNETON Ltn K Schäfer Ja28]

For now it feels like possibly the 22 Squadron machine, taking the evidence we have into consideration - the date, the survivors, or not. But it also doesn't look particuarly burnt. If the place name is suspect then the date might be too??

Possibly some of those German claim locations are going to help track down the placename, as I agree Fuzancourt is likely to be incorrect.

Thanks for sharing. It would be good to work out who we are seeing in these photos, after 100 years.

Regards,

Trevor

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Thank you for you thoughts Trevor, I had looked at the May 1917 entries in TSTB II but there were too many for me to make an opinion. I had spotted the mention of GOUZEAUCOURT as the nearest to Fuzancourt.

Dates on the front of these cards can often be a day or so out and in this case I would say May 1917 is likely to be accurate as the cards message to verso is dated May 30, 1917.

Ian

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Further my post No 16. This FE2b is 6949 (a Boulton Paul produced machine) of 11 squadron lost on July 9, 1916, so this shows we should not always take for granted notes added to photos !

Lt A H T L Speer and 2/Lt W A Wedgwood both killed.

Edited by Ian Simpson
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  • 4 years later...
On 17/02/2015 at 23:12, 94avenge said:

Further my post No 16. This FE2b is 6949 (a Boulton Paul produced machine) of 11 squadron lost on July 9, 1916, so this shows we should not always take for granted notes added to photos !

Lt A H T L Speer and 2/Lt W A Wedgwood both killed.

Do you recall how you came to this conclusion Ian? 

 

I could not see the number you were referring to in post#16

 

William Wedgwood was my closest relative to have been killed in either of the two World Wars therefore I have particular interest in his crash.

 

If anyone else can offer any insight then I would appreciate it. 

 

Thanks 

 

Seb

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1 hour ago, Seb said:

Do you recall how you came to this conclusion Ian? 

 

I could not see the number you were referring to in post#16

 

William Wedgwood was my closest relative to have been killed in either of the two World Wars therefore I have particular interest in his crash.

 

If anyone else can offer any insight then I would appreciate it. 

 

Thanks 

 

Seb

 Not related to the crash Seb...but you may find them interesting....from the British Newspaper Archive. 

Screenshot_20191209-004337.jpg

 

 

Screenshot_20191209-004941.jpg

 

Edit....related to the crash.

 

 

Screenshot_20191209-005428.jpg

Edited by sadbrewer
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