leofric Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Can anyone help me with the enlistment date for a Royal Scots Fusilier. I have a record of a marriage of Andrew Clapperton in 1917. He is described as a Sergeant in the 2/4 Royals Scots, stationed at the Curragh, Co Kildare. I have found what I think is his medal card and roll which states that he also served as Corporal with 12th Royal Scots, however I understand that the 12th was not formed until 1917. I assume if he reached the rank of Sergeant he must have enlisted early in the war or before. His service number was 270335. Can anyone advise me of the enlistment date for this number. Many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 The title of your thread says Royal Scots Fusiliers, but the medal roll/index card of Andrew Clapperton shows that, as you correctly say in the body of your message, he was in the Royal Scots - the Royal Scots Fusiliers was a completely different regiment. The 12th Royal Scots was formed, not in 1917, but within a fortnight of the commencement of the war in August 1914, and they went to France in May 1915 in the 9th Division - details are on the Long Long Trail website Here. So this might help you with working out what he did in the war. Interpreting soldiers' serial numbers is something of a black art, to my mind ...... but hopefully others may be able to help you William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leofric Posted 2 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Sorry for showing my ignorance. Scots Regiments are new to me. Andrew Clapperton was a Royal Scots Fusilier, as were his brothers John and Alexander. Alexander has a service number of 9551 which I assume is a pre-war enlistment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Sorry for showing my ignorance. Scots Regiments are new to me. Don't worry - the two units were, and still are, often mixed up. During WW1, the War Office frequently accidentally attempted to post Royal Scots Fusiliers to Royal Scots units, and vice-versa! I think that you are right about 9551 being a pre-war enlistment - there is information about RSF serial numbers: Here. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 "Sorry for showing my ignorance. Scots Regiments are new to me. Andrew Clapperton was a Royal Scots Fusilier, as were his brothers John and Alexander. Alexander has a service number of 9551 which I assume is a pre-war enlistment." You need to work out if you have the soldier/regiment. The medals rolls index/medal and award rolls clearly have Andrew Clapperton (CPL 270335) as being in the Royal Scots (12th Bn) rather than in the Royal Scots Fusiliers. There was at least one other soldier with the same name who served in the King's Own Scottish Borderers, York and Lancaster Regiment and the Labour Corps. As for Alexander (9551), I think you'll find that if he was 1st or 2nd Bn., that number indicates a joining date of sometime late in 1907 or early 1908. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leofric Posted 3 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2015 Interesting. Not knowing enough about Scottish regiments I jumped to the wrong conclusion. Andrew's marriage certificate in 1917 clearly states "sergeant, 2/4 Royal Scots Fusiliers" and gives his address as the Curragh, Co Kildare. However there doesn't seem to be a medal card for him. I would have thought as a sergeant he would have been in the regiment for some time, His two brothers were also RSF. Alexander was service number 9551 and later 241304. John was service number 296142. So what has happened to Andrew? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 3 January , 2015 Share Posted 3 January , 2015 (edited) Just to confuse matters further, the 2/4th Royal Scots and the (former?) 2/4th Royal Scots Fusiliers were both apparently in Ireland in 1917....the latter at Curragh. But your own posts are slightly confusing. In your first post you mention that his marriage certificate records the 2/4th Royal Scots, but in your post immediately before this one you record that the marriage certificate says, 2/4th Royal Scots Fusiliers. Don't mean to sound rude, so please don't take it the wrong way LOL, but which is it? By the way, there was another thread recently pertaining to an Irishman who served in the RSF and his service number was not far off that of Alexander Clapperton. Here is the link:- http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222492&hl=tolan I've certainly learnt something from this.....I was rather surprised at the number of men surnamed Clapperton who did serve in Scottish regiments....including the Royal Scots, Royal Scots Fusiliers, King's Own Scottish Borderers, Cameronians, Highland Light Infantry and the Scots Guards. Based on what is recorded on ancestry.com, there were a fair number of families with that surname residing in the central belt and the borders of Scotland in the 19th century and at the turn of the 20th century. Edited 3 January , 2015 by Ron Abbott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 3 January , 2015 Share Posted 3 January , 2015 Andrew's marriage certificate in 1917 clearly states "sergeant, 2/4 Royal Scots Fusiliers" and gives his address as the Curragh, Co Kildare. However there doesn't seem to be a medal card for him. I would have thought as a sergeant he would have been in the regiment for some time, His two brothers were also RSF. Alexander was service number 9551 and later 241304. John was service number 296142. So what has happened to Andrew? Curragh certainly sounds right for 2/4th Royal Scots Fusiliers in 1917. His 1907-ish serial number shows that Andrew Clapperton was in one of the two regular battalions before the war (the 1st were in South Africa, the 2nd at Gosport, Hampshire). So far so good. If he genuinely has no medal card, then it shows that he didn't serve overseas during WW1 - he was just involved with training other men, running a home-based unit etc. Perhaps his health was poor. But it may be that he did fight, but was wounded or his health broke down, so that by 1917 he is in the training/2nd line unit in Ireland. In this case there should be a medal card, but perhaps we haven't identified it properly. Further thoughts: there was much sharing of man-power between the Royal Scots Fusiliers and certain other lowland regiments (particularly the Royal Scots, the Scottish Rifles and the King's Own Scottish Borderers), and an experienced NCO would be in demand; so he may well crop up in other units for a spell. And if he first went abroad with, say, a battalion of the Scottish Rifles, then that is what will appear on his medal card - it may not mention Royal Scots Fusiliers at all. William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Alexander Posted 3 January , 2015 Share Posted 3 January , 2015 Can anyone help me with the enlistment date for a Royal Scots Fusilier. I have a record of a marriage of Andrew Clapperton in 1917. He is described as a Sergeant in the 2/4 Royals Scots, stationed at the Curragh, Co Kildare. I have found what I think is his medal card and roll which states that he also served as Corporal with 12th Royal Scots, however I understand that the 12th was not formed until 1917. I assume if he reached the rank of Sergeant he must have enlisted early in the war or before. His service number was 270335. Can anyone advise me of the enlistment date for this number. Many thanks. Andrew was undoubtedly in the Royal Scots. His regimental number indicates previous service in 5 RS - presumably the second line establishment (2/5 RS) that was amalgamated with 2/4 RS (and 2/6 RS) in late 1915. This composite unit briefly became 19 RS before it effectively disappeared when its members were sent out in drafts to active service battalions - in Andrew's case, evidently 12 RS. His regimental number can't be used to deduce a date of enlistment. In March 1917 the entire infantry of the TF were re-numbered for administrative purposes, so 270335 dates from that period only. In the absence of his military record, we can only guess that he may have joined up towards the end of 1915 - that is before the Military Service Acts of the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 4 January , 2015 Share Posted 4 January , 2015 I rather think that we are now talking about two completely different Andrew Clappertons. If Leofric is after Andrew Clapperton 270335 of the 12th Royal Scots, then I'm sure that the details that you give, Jack, are very helpful. But if, as I myself suspect, that Leofric's Andrew Clapperton is in 2/4th Royal Scots Fusiliers, stationed in Curragh (and possibly without a medal card if he didn't serve abroad during the war), then we are probably looking at different Andrew Clappertons, and not the same man serving in a rather large selection of units. Perhaps Leofric can clarify? William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Alexander Posted 4 January , 2015 Share Posted 4 January , 2015 I rather think that we are now talking about two completely different Andrew Clappertons. If Leofric is after Andrew Clapperton 270335 of the 12th Royal Scots, then I'm sure that the details that you give, Jack, are very helpful. But if, as I myself suspect, that Leofric's Andrew Clapperton is in 2/4th Royal Scots Fusiliers, stationed in Curragh (and possibly without a medal card if he didn't serve abroad during the war), then we are probably looking at different Andrew Clappertons, and not the same man serving in a rather large selection of units. Perhaps Leofric can clarify? William Hi, William Andrew has a medal card and an entry in the medal rolls, confirming overseas service with 12 RS. His regimental number is also consistent with earlier service in 2/5 RS, which was amalgamated with 2/4 RS. The information on the wedding certificate may be a clerical error - or (since he was a sergeant in what was effectively a training establishment) he may have been attached to 2/4 RSF in some instructional capacity at the time. There is no doubt at all that he was a Royal Scot and that he was posted to the 12th Battalion in France and Flanders at some point after his marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamRev Posted 4 January , 2015 Share Posted 4 January , 2015 Hi, William Andrew has a medal card and an entry in the medal rolls, confirming overseas service with 12 RS. His regimental number is also consistent with earlier service in 2/5 RS, which was amalgamated with 2/4 RS. The information on the wedding certificate may be a clerical error - or (since he was a sergeant in what was effectively a training establishment) he may have been attached to 2/4 RSF in some instructional capacity at the time. There is no doubt at all that he was a Royal Scot and that he was posted to the 12th Battalion in France and Flanders at some point after his marriage. Jack - that is possible, but since 2/4th Royal Scots Fusiliers were in Curragh, County Kildare, whereas 2/4th Royal Scots (and absorbed remnants of 2/5th) were in Fermoy, County Cork from Nov 1916 onwards, a considerable distance away, I am sure that the detail about him being in the 2/4th Royal Scots Fusiliers is correct, and not a clerical error. Whether the Royal Scots Fusilier Andrew Clapperton (who may or may not have a medal card - not, if he only served in Ireland) was the same man as the Royal Scot Andrew Clapperton with the medal card (as I understand it this was just the first card that Leofric came across, so he just assumed that Royal Scots and Royal Scots Fusiliers were the same regiment, and that it was the same man) is the question. He only quoted the service number 270335 because he found it on the medal card - not because it was on the marriage certificate, if I understand things correctly. But I may be completely wrong - as I said before, I think that it needs Leofric to clarify things as to what he actually knows about the man, William Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leofric Posted 21 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 21 January , 2015 William You are right. Not knowing the difference between Royal Scots and Royal Scots Fusiliers (which I do now) I did jump to the wrong conclusion and connect the two. Consequently this had caused the confusion above. My man is the RSF Sergeant who it appears did not serve overseas but seems to have been a training Sergeant in Ireland. Is there a Regimental Museum or group of enthusiasts whip may be able to help me track down a picture of him. Sergeants are usually easier to track down than ORs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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