Michael Haselgrove Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 Dear All, In order to provide a brief break from the subject of bayonets, I thought I would share a sabre in my collection. All the relevant information that may interest you may be found on this website: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/cc/bw.htm Although the maker's name is obscured, the example in my collection was made by Alex. Coppel of Solingen in 1915. It has Bakelite grips and the scabbard has a black manganese parkerized finish. Although it looks as though the hilt has a certain amount of rust in fact most of this is solidified oil. Of interest is the 1920 stamp. Happy new year to all of you. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 1 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2015 More photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 Of interest is the 1920 stamp. Happy new year to all of you. A very nice piece - and looks heavy as well! I especially liked the '1920' stamp - didn't realise that they stamped swords as well! And Happy New Year to you as well Michael, Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 1 January , 2015 Share Posted 1 January , 2015 Michael, an impressive looking piece ... and a very informative link that you provided. Thanks for posting. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 2 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Hi Julian and S>S, Thanks for your kind comments. Julian, I find I don't have much information as to what was and wasn't stamped 1920 (or 1921). However, it does seem that all weapons were stamped. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 Hi, If this is really the year 1920 this should mean that this (nice) sabre was in use with the "100.000 soldiers army" of the Reichswehr. But as this sabre was already obsolete in WWI, I have my doubts. This Prussian artillery sabre was a lightweight version of the well known "Bluecher sabre" regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 2 January , 2015 Share Posted 2 January , 2015 If this is really the year 1920 this should mean that this (nice) sabre was in use with the "100.000 soldiers army" of the Reichswehr. But as this sabre was already obsolete in WWI, I have my doubts. Not obsolete Cnock. This type of Artillerie-Säbel was a standard issue to the Mannschaften in various branches of the Imperial Army before and during the war. You only have to look at the closeup photo of the markings in the LINK provided in the OP, to see that this type was still being issued to troops right up to 1915. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 3 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2015 Hi S>S and Cnock, Thanks for your comments. Although I mentioned that my sabre was made in 1915 I did fail to include a photo of that marking and now do so. I have had a look in Uniforms & Equipment of the Imperial German Army 1900-1918 by Charles Woolley. He includes no less that nine photographs of personnel carrying this sabre. Not all are dated but a number are obviously taken during the war, the latest dated February 1917. If Cnock you are saying that the Reichswehr did not have artillery so had no use for the sabre that is incorrect as the Reichswehr was permitted artillery up to 105mm. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 3 January , 2015 Share Posted 3 January , 2015 Hi Michael, I never wrote that the Reichswehr had no artillery, I only said the sabre got obsolete during WWI,(I had to precise after 1915) best regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 3 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2015 Hi Cnock, Noted. Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 January , 2015 Share Posted 8 January , 2015 I need to do some further work on this (probably tomorrow as busy tonight), but I have found a Reichswehr instruction of 1920 that seems to certify that the artillery 'sabre' was to be worn by cavalry. I need to track the original document down and that will take some time - but I thought I'd spread the good news now that, yes, it seems that the 1920 regulations did allow for the continuation of sword-wearing, and so old swords with 1920 markings! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 8 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2015 Hi Julian, Well, good luck with the research. If you can find something specific that will be very interesting. Having said that, in my opinion it would be very strange if the artillery discarded swords which were being manufactured and worn until very recently. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 January , 2015 Share Posted 9 January , 2015 Hi Julian, Well, good luck with the research. If you can find something specific that will be very interesting. Having said that, in my opinion it would be very strange if the artillery discarded swords which were being manufactured and worn until very recently. Hi Michael, Couldn't agree more, that they would have kept their swords! What really intrigued me about your piece, though, was not so much its venerable age when authorised for use by the Reichswehr, but simply that I have never come across a '1920' (or 1921) stamp on a sword before )not, mind you, that I have specifically looked for one). So, I used odd periods of time to scour German web-sites which is where I came upon this intriguing reference to the official document regarding bladed weapons in the Reichswehr - just got to track that one down now! Julian PS: I shouldn't say this really, but chasing up references on WW1 bladed weapons is often a lot more fun that chasing up references to the architecture and liturgy of 4th-6th century basilica churches in Anatolia - and then having to read them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 January , 2015 Share Posted 9 January , 2015 Found it! There is a Reichsheer document of 22 December 1920 that authorises the carrying of the 'Infanterie-Offizierdegen' or 'Artillerie-Offizier-sabel' by officers; and the wearing of 'artillery swords' by members of the cavalry and the 'reitenden artillerie' units. The document also indicates that other members of the Reichsheer carried the 'short bayonet', and so the S 84/98, while a supplement of 1923 reveals that by then, the S 84/98 had replaced all 98/05 that were still in official use. Naturally, all of these weapons would have had the 1920 (or 1921) stamp as according to the 1920 regulations regarding these. Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 9 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2015 Hi Julian, Well done with the research - what an advantage you have over those of us who can't read German! I suppose many of the swords carried by officers were privately purchased and thus not perhaps subject to marking with a 1920/21 stamp? The number of swords actually issued to Reichswehr personnel would, I expect, have been modest which is why one seldom, if ever, sees one marked 1920. Having said that I can't recall when I last saw a bayonet marked 1920. Anyway, thanks very much for your interesting research. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 January , 2015 Share Posted 9 January , 2015 Anyway, thanks very much for your interesting research. Michael, it has been fun! And now, for your pleasure (as it were!) a few more facts from instructions sent to all Reichswehr departments... 1 August 1920 - decision that all weapons held by the 'Reichswehr' be stamped (HVBl. 657/7.20.J2.(W2) IV) 28 August 1920 - confirmation of the above order (HVBl. 498/8.20.J2 (W2)) 28 September 1920 - Instructions as to weapon marking as per the above, with instructions on size of the '1920' mark (HVBl. 302/9.20.J2.(W2)) - this also includes a diagram showing where all hand weapons then in use by the Reichswehr must be stamped - yours is in the right place! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 10 January , 2015 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2015 Hi Julian, Thanks very much for all the effort you have put into researching this issue. Although I was always satisfied that the 1920 marking is genuine - in my opinion, it probably devalues the sword rather than otherwise - it is always good to have chapter and verse. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 10 January , 2015 Share Posted 10 January , 2015 ... Although I was always satisfied that the 1920 marking is genuine - in my opinion, it probably devalues the sword rather than otherwise - it is always good to have chapter and verse. Happy to do this - but I have to disagree on that 1920 mark as it probably adds to the value! How many of these blankwaffen went through that extra period of service post 1918? I think there were only 60 or so of these to each Reitende Batterie post 1920, and how many batteries were there? So, like Khaki's 1920-marked Lange P08 (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=222596&page=1entry2204954) you have a rarity there! That aside, although in one way it is a shame that this is not unit-marked - there again the lack of unit-marks suggests that although it was in service use in 1920, it was no longer in service use in late 1923.early 1924, when (as I understand it) HDv 464 of 12 December 1923 required that all weapons and equipment in use by the Reichswehr be unit-marked! So, sit back and enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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