Hanniballector Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Hi Bought these two lady's yesterday p14 and Bertheir Mle. Most of what is to be known about it I've read from your previous posts. Could someone tell me the ruff year/ date of its Manufacture please. It would of most certainly been home guard issued so does any one know if the butt disk is one of those units or something else ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 20 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Sorry didn't come out very clearly butt disk is marked H/P 3 Sorry didn't come out very clearly butt disk is marked H/P 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 20 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Ive read a bit up on the Bertheir Mle 1907 -15 but one thing I find I bit confusing is the 1916 date. This rifle has still a three shot magazine but in 1916 alot of rifles where upgraded to the five shot magazine to try and keep up with the Germans gew 98. However some French troops preferd the three shot mag still so I don't think all had it done. Could this be the reson why this rifle is stamped with the 1916 date and not upgraded? I would like at some point to find the correct bayonet for this rifle I've had a look in a book I've got on bayonets and found four very similar types. 1886 with quillon and brass hilt and 1886/15 without a quillon,1886 White metal hilt and quillon, early pre 1893 style press catch; 1886/15 made without ot quillon, post 1893 press catch; 1886/15 brass hilt 1915 manufacture without quillon. Could somebody please tell if I'm right in saying it's the last one mentioned ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 20 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 I would like at some point to find the correct bayonet for this rifle I've had a look in a book I've got on bayonets and found four very similar types. 1886 with quillon and brass hilt and 1886/15 without a quillon,1886 White metal hilt and quillon, early pre 1893 style press catch; 1886/15 made without ot quillon, post 1893 press catch; 1886/15 brass hilt 1915 manufacture without quillon. Could somebody please tell if I'm right in saying it's the last one mentioned The Berthier has it's own bayonet - oh, a reply coming in I'll see what that says before continuing (it was another series of photographs!). Continued ... I am away from any reference books but there were two types of Berthier bayonet (and quite by chance I will be receiving one sometime this week!). The ones you describe (and show) are all Lebel types. The Berthier bayonet has a small quillon, wooden or 'bakelite' grips, and a longitudinal hole that goes right through the pommel handle to accommodate the cleaning rod (I think!). These are from the web - (from http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/world-firearms/french-lebel-rifle-berthier-carbine-recent-gun-show-finds-90120/) (from http://www.stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/french-wwi-m1892-berthier-bayonet-modified.26096.archive.htm) BTW, the rarer Berthier is the Type 1 - the muzzle ting does not extend over the tang/handle; the more common version is the type 2, the muzzle ring does extend back over the tang/handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 20 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2014 I forgot to ask Does anyone know anymore about it by its serial number and is it normal that the bottom of the magazine doesn't have a feed plate on theses rifles ? Many thanks Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 20 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Hi Trajan Thanks for your reply Is it any of these posted below from my book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 I would like at some point to find the correct bayonet for this rifle I've had a look in a book I've got on bayonets and found four very similar types. 1886 with quillon and brass hilt and 1886/15 without a quillon,1886 White metal hilt and quillon, early pre 1893 style press catch; 1886/15 made without ot quillon, post 1893 press catch; 1886/15 brass hilt 1915 manufacture without quillon. Could somebody please tell if I'm right in saying it's the last one mentioned ? Any of the M1886 bayonets would suit your rifle, however one of the long variants without the quillon would be the most accurate for your 1916 dated Berthier (ie. an Mle 1886/15 epee-baionette) Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 The five shot version never really made active service till late 1918. So your three shot is good for WW1. Nice items and saw them on Arundels site. Old spec too. TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Aha, here we have them - from http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?297438-Berthier-Bayonet-Question Type 1 and Type 2, showing muzzle ring differences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchtrotter Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 No feed plate normal on the Bertier. It's a cracking example and I would have it anyday. You beat me to it. Regards TT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanniballector Posted 20 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 20 December , 2014 (edited) Thank you all for your help, and thank you trenchtrotter for your compliment. I was a bit worried about the deactivation on these as they have clear barrels,and no pin through the chamber. Arundals said this is because they where converted to shotguns, so the type of deactivation is the same as old spec shotgun. Which means the rifling has been removed and barrel slotted, firing pin cut and bolt sliced at 45 degrees, but no rod or pin through chamber / barrel as I'm sure you all know . They are certificated ! You don't see too many of them either in both cases as the p14 as you know has its volley sites, which I think is really nice to see to ! I will start my hunt for the bayonet now Thank you ! Regards Nick Edited 20 December , 2014 by Hanniballector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Nick, Aleck/Sawdoc, an old GWF bayonet mate of lots of us, with a truly impressive bayonet collection (and an even better collector's eye!) has just sent me a whole bunch of Berthier bayonet photographs from his collection to help with your search. I don't have any reference books to hand but these show the differences between the three types of Berthier bayonet, the type I and II - and the type III (introduced in 1916, I think, which I had forgotten about) with the short quillon, and I am happy to show his photographs here with his permission - they are really good! So, good hunting Nick - and thanks Aleck!!! For what it is worth, of the three types, the I and III are the rarer, but you should find a II, which would suit your rifle, relatively easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 20 December , 2014 Share Posted 20 December , 2014 Hi Trajan, I'm getting a bit confused here. Surely the bayonets you show in the various illustrations you have posted are for the Mousqueton M.1892, 1892 or 1892-1916 and thus will not fit on Nick's M.1917-1915? Perhaps I have missed something. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 December , 2014 Share Posted 21 December , 2014 I'm getting a bit confused here. Surely the bayonets you show in the various illustrations you have posted are for the Mousqueton M.1892, 1892 or 1892-1916 and thus will not fit on Nick's M.1917-1915? Perhaps I have missed something. You are indeed absolutely right - my confusion and my profound apologies Nick and all others! Confusing my rifles there... That's what happens when multi-tasking, especially when away from reference books... So, a double and a grovel (is there an emoticon for that? There should be!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 December , 2014 Share Posted 21 December , 2014 Having been quite rightly corrected by Michael (who should really have slapped my wrists!) I thought it best to resolve my ignorance and improve my knowledge of what French bayonets go with what French rifles, something I have never really looked at before... Not being at home I could not check the French bayonet books - but I did find a lovely Gunboards article that explains a lot! Including how the Berthier 1907 had its own version of the 'Lebel'-type bayonet (Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1907), and how the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 was modified to take the standard Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886. Check out: - http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?86602-*-Berthier-Carbine-and-Rifle-Information-* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now