Khaki Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 I believe that the ignition of the bagged charged was initiated by a percussion cap/primer? I don't know its name, what did these look like? I am guessing that they were nothing like a percussion cap in the muzzle loading rifle sense but were more like a detonator in shape. I cannot find a photo on line. Gunners help please. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 The most common use seems to be in the 4.5" Howitzer. This took (from memory) between 1/2 lb and a 1lb of charge in up to 5 bags in the short brass case. The primer sits flat in the case like a 18 pdr primer. I think the cases could take about 3-5 primers before the case was recycled. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 Most of them looked like standard brass blank rifle or shotgun cartridges and most BL guns used a capped case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 1 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2014 Thanks for the replies, I was way off the mark, I don't know why I had this mental image of a 'detonator' type initiator maybe on the largest of guns?? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunner Bailey Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 Khaki I think you have grounds for being right but maybe the wrong war. What I call the 'Pepper Pot' type detonator the protrudes 1 1/2" up into the case may be what you are thinking of but I think these were more WW2 and later than WW1. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 Khaki, Attached is a photo of a selection of (inert) igniters from my collection. Many of them have been prepared as a dummy for instruction purposes and not all are artillery igniters. A good source of information on these is Treatise on Ammunition War Office 1915. Published by Naval & Military Press in association with the Imperial War Museum. Hope this helps. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 Treatise on Ammunition 1915 http://gigconceptsinc.com/British-1915.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 As the Treatise posted above will confirm, many had pockets of RFG black powder stitched in at either end of the bag as a gaine. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 1 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2014 Many thanks all, plenty of reading there, another facet to become absorbed in. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMMo Posted 1 December , 2014 Share Posted 1 December , 2014 The Mountain Gunners called these "Friction T-Tubes" (as I imagine, but I'm not sure, others did as well) which ignited the charge and they had a lot of problems with them in Salonika in 1918. This is an appendix attached to the War Diary of the Bute Mountain battery, 4th Highland (Mountain) Brigade, RGA, TF for those who are interested: Report of Friction T Tubes for Firing B.L. 2.75” gun. I forward herewith samples of T Tubes after firing. a) is a tube as it should be after firing. shows a tube which, through the friction bar not igniting, the composition in the tube has caused a “miss fire”. The percentage of “miss fires” is, with the tubes now being received, extremely high, and thereby an even rate of fire is impossible. c) indicates how many of the tubes burst in firing. This bursting of the tubes burns and wears out the Axial Vent, and, as indicated in (D) part of the tube often breaks off in the vent, thus throwing the gun temporarily out of action, and in the case of a badly worn out vent, it may take an hour or more to remove the pieces left in. e) In addition to the burning of the tube, the screw in the upper face of the “T” head has been ejected. This is a common occurrence and often the ejected screw finds a billet in the No. 2’s forehead. The other day two of these screws were removed from the forehead of one of my men. loss of gas from the chamber, the shooting becomes erratic. Only one spare breech block is carried by the Battery. This has already been utilized to replace one sent to Ordnance but others will be worn out before it can be re-bushed and returned, that is, some or all of my guns may probably be out of action at an early date unless a new breech block can be obtained. I would suggest that the establishment should provide for one spare breech block per gun as it is quite possible for them all to wear out at the same time. (sgd) A.H. Hill, Capt. O.C. Bute Mountain Battery, R.G.A. (T) Mike Morrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 2 December , 2014 Share Posted 2 December , 2014 Only guns like 18-pr did not have bagged charges because there was only a single charge and it was in a brass cartridge case with a percussion primer in its base. Smaller calibre QF howitzers were similar but there were several charge bags in the cart case, if necessary some bags were removed. None of these bags had an ignitor. BL ordnance had no metal cart case, just bagged charges and the base charge had a black powder ignitor, again some bags could be moved from the set if required. With these either a friction tube was used as shown above, or later just a tube (correct UK term, in this context 'primer' is an Americanism). The tube was inserted in the lock (and old term, think matchlock) fitted in the slide on the outside of the breach block. For field service these were percussion but for at least some coast guns they were electric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMMo Posted 2 December , 2014 Share Posted 2 December , 2014 This is a photo of a "just fired" 2.75 mountain gun in Salonika. The Corporal (on the right of the tube) has just pulled the lanyard on the Friction Tube which has fired the gun (the barrel is in recoil). This is an IWM photo that some in past have described as a gunner getting shot right as the cannon fired. I don't think so. It took a good deal of force to pull the lanyard and set off the friction tube; so much that his helmet is falling off and one can see his motion. Or, you can believe the other version if you wish. Sorry about the resolution. I had to "dumb it down" quite a bit to get it on the forum. Mike Morrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 3 December , 2014 Share Posted 3 December , 2014 That's why helmets had chin straps. Obviously a battery that needed a decent BSM to get a grip them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMMo Posted 5 December , 2014 Share Posted 5 December , 2014 Nigel, BSM probably was nowhere near this gun. The Mountain Guns were tasked to go with the small units which went on "raids" in Salonika where one or two guns would go out as cover for these small infantry and cavalry units. It was a tactical effort used during the mosquito season to limit the amount of time soldiers were in the lowlands exposed to the malaria threat. Even at Gallipoli, single guns were frequently detailed to a front trench line or a cliff top to provide enfilading fire in an attempt to defeat dug-in machine gun positions and identified snipers. That is the reason their casualty rate was so high. The Mountain Batteries only fired as full batteries in the major pushes westward near Lake Doiran and as the forces pushed into Bulgaria, ending the war in that sector in the month before the armistice in France. As one can see, the gun is dug in to an exposed hillside position. They won't be there long. Mike Morrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 6 December , 2014 Share Posted 6 December , 2014 Occasional single guns in the front line happened on the W Front as well. However, the normal deployment was as a battery and that is how guns spent most of their time. By definition raids are not an prolonged deployment and there are 365 days in a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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