khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 I would be grateful for opinions of this mace/club . I have had it for quite a few years now. Lead filled with hobnails, complete with it's lanyard ....I'll let the pictures do the talking. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 A few more pictures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Looks okay to me, what is the overall length? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Looks okay to me, what is the overall length? khaki Thank you for the reply. OAL 18"(approx. 46 cms), diameter (smallest diameter of handle just before the 'pommel') is approx. 1" ( 2.5 cms) tapering to 1 3/4" ( 4.5 cms) at striking end. It weighs 1 lb 6oz (approx. 624 grams) Kind Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radlad Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Looks like a rounders bat with a few nails in to me? Size is correct under English rules, how can one tell it's age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 David It's a genuine British club of the classic pattern. The German ones have larger studs in a slightly different arrangement. Trench clubs have been much faked, usually clumsily but they still to manage deceive the unwary on a regular basis. Yours however is a "one looker". They don't get better than this. Regards, W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Looks like a rounders bat with a few nails in to me? Size is correct under English rules, how can one tell it's age? Agreed, it does indeed look like a rounders bat, if this was biology it would be termed "convergent evolution" where two animals have evolved very similar features but are not related. The 'bat' was designed to hit a ball, it needs a handle size that is comfortable to hold and a heavier end to increase the weight of the striking end to hit the ball with more power. My 'trench bat' has the same function but the target is much larger and more lethal than a ball so the striking end was made heavier (lead insert) to generate more force when striking and the hobnails meant that that force was focused on the small surface area of the nails increasing the amount of pressure (ie lbs per square inch) Like a stiletto heel on a wooden floor. However, a rounder's bat does not taper its entire length(like the mace) it has a much longer striking area which has the same diameter so that hitting a ball is easier(picture below) Rounder's bats are nearly all made from Ash, this club is not, it looks to be Oak or very similar. As to age of wood, I have been a collector of African weapons for years, I have a number of 19th Century and early 20th Century wooden knobkerries and clubs. The patination, age hardening etc are impossible to fake convincingly. This club/mace has definite age and is easily comparable to the knobkerries from this period. DIMENSIONS OF A ROUNDER'S BAT... WIKIPEDIA "...the bat no more than 460 millimetres (18 in) in length and 170 millimetres (6.7 in) in diameter. Rounders England place a weight-limit of 370 grams (13 oz) on the bat..." So the only dimension that is similar is the length, if the mace was shorter it would not be so powerful, if made longer it would generate more force but would not be so efficient in the close confines of a trench. Here is a display in the Royal Armouries in Leeds (notice the same German club as mine) and a rounder's bat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 David It's a genuine British club of the classic pattern. The German ones have larger studs in a slightly different arrangement. Trench clubs have been much faked, usually clumsily but they still to manage deceive the unwary on a regular basis. Yours however is a "one looker". They don't get better than this. Regards, W. W Thank you for the comments. Now, I am a little confused, I have seen a German club before with the 'clover-leaf' nail configuration, but Leeds Armouries are displaying the same club as a German weapon. I acquired this from a British family whom suggested it was taken from a German soldier. Could this be a case of a British club captured by the Germans only to be 're-captured' by the British ?? If ONLY this mace could TALK ....the stories it could tell Kind Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 I agree with Wainfleet's comments. An interesting and similar thread can be found here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154549&hl=%2Btrench+%2Bclubs#entry1489927 Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Just a question or two Were these clubs used throughout the whole war and were the steel helmets a good protection against them. Gerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Just a question or two[/size] Were these clubs used throughout the whole war and were the steel helmets a good protection against them.[/size] Gerry [/size] Gerry, I suppose we would have to view this through the eyes of a medieval warrior with the similarity of close quarter conflict. Tests have been carried out on a 'ballistic gel' torso encased in breast / back plate with quilted material between the two. (ballistic gel is a material that has the same qualities as human flesh) Slow motion footage of the 'full bloodied' blow from a 15th C war hammer demonstrated , (clearly visible) the 'shock waves' passing through and rebounding back within the torso. Because our body's have a large percentage of water content, the effect is similar to an explosion underwater. It is common that 'modern' naval warfare (with exploding shells) have decimated the fish swimming nearby during the battle....killed (internal injuries) or stunned by this shockwave effect. Obviously a 15C war hammer was much longer and therefor generated more force. However, if a 'helmeted head' was struck with a trench club with enough power and speed the brain of the victim would bounce off the inner surface of the skull causing anything from being dazed to concussion to unconsciousness or even death. Although competing boxers do not have helmets, a powerful blow to the head from a padded boxing gloved hand has the same effect. The head's movement of acceleration and suddenly 'stopping' as the head reaches it's maximum range of movement.. again demonstrates this percussive force. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Thank you David, That was a most impressive answer Gerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Another thought about the helmet's protection qualities. Certain angles of a club strike to the head would "glance" off the helmet likely striking the shoulder or upper arm, causing injury or broken bones which would certainly incapacitate the enermy, at least momentarily. Also, raiding parties would attack clandestinely, mainly at night. Would many in the 'attacked' trenches still be wearing their uncomfortable helmets at night except those on guard duty, especially if unaware of a surprise attack ? I am assuming that shelling of the trenches rarely occurred at night though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 Thank you David, That was a most impressive answer Gerry Thank you Gerry Kind Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 27 November , 2014 Share Posted 27 November , 2014 In the final analysis, if it was offered for sale to me, I would be more than happy to hand over money for it. A very nice piece, congratulations. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 27 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2014 I agree with Wainfleet's comments. An interesting and similar thread can be found here: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=154549&hl=%2Btrench+%2Bclubs#entry1489927 Regards, Michael. Michael, sorry missed your post. Thank you for the interesting link. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin O'Marah Posted 28 November , 2014 Share Posted 28 November , 2014 Why strike only the helmeted part of the head, surely a facial or a neck blow would be much more effective, after all the trench club as all weapon's of war were issued and used for one purpose only. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 28 November , 2014 Share Posted 28 November , 2014 My understanding of trench clubs was their use as a 'silent killer' on a raid/patrol, a whack on a steel helmet at night would sound like a dinner gong ? khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 28 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 28 November , 2014 According to this information (link below) shelling of enemy trenches did occur at night, to "soften" the target area before a 'trench raid'. http://www.pals.org.uk/barnsley/trenchraid2.htm David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 6 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2014 I hope it is OK to ask this........I would be grateful if someone could give me an idea as to value of this club. My home insurance requires me to list pieces in my collection and their current market value. Thanks for any help Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 6 December , 2014 Share Posted 6 December , 2014 I recently sold a similar one for £300 if that helps you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khanda Posted 8 December , 2014 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2014 Thank you Wainfleet, with so many fakes selling at silly prices, one recently I saw sold for nearly £300 and that seemed to be a "aged" rounders bat (similar to the bat pictured above), lead filled with 'brad' nails hammered at the striking end, it's hard to tell what a genuine one is worth. Kind Regards David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ZZUTI1 Posted 19 June , 2015 Share Posted 19 June , 2015 Hello. I am interested in your trench club, but cannot get the PM to work. Can you please email me at: zzuti1@aol.com Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trench club Posted 21 July , 2016 Share Posted 21 July , 2016 Hello: If your still have a trench club for sale, please let me know. I am interested in a variety of designs. Thank you David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 23 July , 2016 Share Posted 23 July , 2016 I don't think the OP's club was for sale, I think he just wanted a valuation for insurance purposes. While we're on the subject, here's one in my collection of the same classic British pattern. The 7s in "717" are not continental crossed 7s; it's just the grain of the wood that makes them appear so. Ths is for interest and not for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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