ID unit please

[Black Watch]

This photograph came with a badge which says 1st Lanark RE vols on the fronts, and on the back. Drill and eng. Comptn. Sergt. H.R.Seaton F comp. 1898

Would this be NCO's of F company or the whole unit.? Anything else that can be gleaned from the picture would be very welcome. I have no idea whether the picture is from the same year as the badge.

The small pictures are of H.R.Seaton and I wonder if anyone can see a candidate in the group picture.

In the last pic, he is the man on the left

I can make the main picture bigger if necessary

[johnboy]

I am not at all sure if all the pics are connected.

The first small one looks as if it could be mid 40's and the second late fifties early sixties.

Even if he was only 18yrs old in 1898 he would have been born 1880.

If my dates above are about right it cannot be him.

[Steven Broomfield]

I'd say the chap in the first picture and the older chap in the second are the same man; if the latter pic was taken in the 40's or early 50's, he might, at a stretch be in the group pic, but it's a long-shot.

That said, you need to attract the attention of grumpy: that picture is a minefield of Volunteer badges, appointments, etc. He'd think he'd died and gone to Heaven. Frogsmile and a few others, too.

Could I suggest either you re-title the thread or re-post the picture? It's not GW, but it's fascinating. Don't put it in Skindles because Grumpy doesn't go there.

[FROGSMILE]

They are Volunteer Royal Engineers, who wore white instead of yellow Austrian knots, collar piping, and bands around their pill box forage caps. Several of the men have 5-point 'efficiency stars', one awarded for each 5 years attending annual camp and passing as efficient. The sergeant standing at left has the usual grenade above his chevrons as is normal for Royal Engineers and he also has a 4-point proficiency star showing that he has passed the skills set required of his rank. There are also some medical orderlies with the Geneva cross badge, something that in the regulars only medical corps were authorised to wear. Seated in the centre are the unit's 'staff sergeants' (i.e. HQ staff), most of whom will have been regulars. The more junior staff sergeants wear pill box caps and the senior have peaked forage caps, but all are wearing 'patrol frocks' (braided jackets). In both RE and RA ranks below sergeant (in the RE 'Corporal' and 'Second Corporal') wore chevrons ( two and one respectively) on their pill box forage caps.

The photo marks the 1898, annual drill and engineering competition, and appears to show all the NCOs of the Lanarkshire Corps (unit), but that the sergeant concerned was from F Company.

[Black Watch]

Thanks guys, you are obviously right about the pics. This man will be the son (Same name Hugh Reid Seaton). His Father H.R.Seaton was born 1869. I got over-excited .

I put the pic here Steven as I reckoned it would be deemed off topic anywhere else as I don't think he served in 14-18, he'd be a bit old. The scan I have is much better quality, and I could possibly get hold of the original.

Thanks Frogsmile as far as I know he was never a regular, so I may be able to rule some out. Likewise with some of the other info you've posted. You reckon this pic is actually from 1898 then? Thats handy. The chap, 2nd left back row is wearing a medal, or possibly the badge I mentioned although the shape looks wrong.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks guys, you are obviously right about the pics. This man will be the son (Same name Hugh Reid Seaton). His Father H.R.Seaton was born 1869. I got over-excited .

I put the pic here Steven as I reckoned it would be deemed off topic anywhere else as I don't think he served in 14-18, he'd be a bit old. The scan I have is much better quality, and I could possibly get hold of the original.

Thanks Frogsmile as far as I know he was never a regular, so I may be able to rule some out. Likewise with some of the other info you've posted. You reckon this pic is actually from 1898 then? Thats handy. The chap, 2nd left back row is wearing a medal, or possibly the badge I mentioned although the shape looks wrong.

Yes everything fits for the photo to be 1898. The left side of the uniform breast is reserved for military medals and the right side for other medals, but the volunteers were quite different and had a tendency to wear rather a lot of badges as can be seen from their arms. By far the majority of volunteer units were rifles (infantry) with a strong tradition of shooting competitions. To reflect this interest many volunteers had a second tunic on which they wore prize badges from the many competitions on both breasts and the left arm. Sometimes these were covered with such shooting badges. The badge you have is an engineers version of the same concept. I cannot tell if it is the badge worn in the photo, or if it is a Volunteer Decoration (a medal specially for volunteers).

There were only two Volunteer Royal Engineer units in Scotland, one for Aberdeenshire and one for Lanarkshire. The HQ of the first was in Aberdeen and the second in Glasgow. This was largely because both were busy commercial ports and there was a tradition at that time for the Royal Engineers to have units at major ports responsible for their defences. These were known as Submarine Mining Companies. These responsibilities were later transferred to the Royal Navy and never returned to the Royal Engineers.

[shippingsteel]

Not particularly relevant, but the group shot shows the men holding a few Martini-Henry rifles (or related variants thereof) This may help slightly to confirm the period.?

Cheers, S>S

[Black Watch]

Not particularly relevant, but the group shot shows the men holding a few Martini-Henry rifles (or related variants thereof) This may help slightly to confirm the period.?

Cheers, S>S

And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind..

Thanks SS They look a lot shorter than Lee Enfields

[FROGSMILE]

Not particularly relevant, but the group shot shows the men holding a few Martini-Henry rifles (or related variants thereof) This may help slightly to confirm the period.?

Cheers, S>S

I don't see that there was any doubt about the period of the photo that needed confirming, given that the owner of the photo had written both, the occasion and the date on the back!

As I mentioned, the uniforms, head dress and such like are all commensurate with that date. In 1898 the regulars were still transitioning between the Lee Metford and the Long Lee Enfield Rifle, which did not complete until 1899, Volunteers were still equipped with the Martini Henry Rifle and its carbine derivatives.

[shippingsteel]

This photograph came with a badge which says 1st Lanark RE vols on the fronts, and on the back. Drill and eng. Comptn. Sergt. H.R.Seaton F comp. 1898

Would this be NCO's of F company or the whole unit.? Anything else that can be gleaned from the picture would be very welcome. I have no idea whether the picture is from the same year as the badge.

I don't see that there was any doubt about the period of the photo that needed confirming, given that the owner of the photo had written both, the occasion and the date on the back!

Really FROGSMILE, is that right.? Perhaps you may need to get down off your high-horse for a moment to properly check your facts. Did you read the OP.? The photo itself is NOT dated.

And in actual fact I was not referring to anything which you had stated or posted, but was answering the question "Anything else that can be gleaned from the picture would be very welcome"

Cheers, S>S

[FROGSMILE]

Really FROGSMILE, is that right.? Perhaps you may need to get down off your high-horse for a moment to properly check your facts. Did you read the OP.? The photo itself is NOT dated.

And in actual fact I was not referring to anything which you had stated or posted, but was answering the question "Anything else that can be gleaned from the picture would be very welcome"

Cheers, S>S

I'm not on a 'high horse' at all and meant no offence, whether you chose to take umbrage, or not.

I see what you mean now shippingsteel, that the year was written on the badge, rather than on the photo and your point is well made. That notwithstanding, the post seems to me to imply that the badge/medal and photo are directly connected. Certainly the entire detail of the photo fits with that date. Hopefully that is of use to the OP.

[Black Watch]

Thanks guys, my fault for not making things clearer. I was asked to do a little research for a friend. They had a picture which they presume their ancestor is in, and a badge, as described. Whether the badge was awarded at the same time as the picture I don't know.

This is a close up of the medal. Its not the same shape as the badge

Cheers

Neil

[Muerrisch]

Nice group. Probably "the NCOs" but a bit top-heavy with sergeants. A few variants of uniform here.

Of interest is that several sergeants do not have the SNO proficiency 4 point star badge. I wonder if they were permanent staff regulars?

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks guys, my fault for not making things clearer. I was asked to do a little research for a friend. They had a picture which they presume their ancestor is in, and a badge, as described. Whether the badge was awarded at the same time as the picture I don't know.

This is a close up of the medal. Its not the same shape as the badge

Cheers

Neil

It's a medal with a type of suspender that was common during the Victorian and Edwardian eras. It was used on the regular army Long Service and good Conduct medal of that period and he might perhaps be either, an ex regular, or a regular on the staff of the volunteer unit.

[FROGSMILE]

Nice group. Probably "the NCOs" but a bit top-heavy with sergeants. A few variants of uniform here.

Of interest is that several sergeants do not have the SNO proficiency 4 point star badge. I wonder if they were permanent staff regulars?

Most of the permanent staff would be in patrol frocks I think Grumpy, but I guess it is possible some are in tunics, including perhaps the Corporal with medal, although his exact status is of course not clear.