Bob54 Posted 16 November , 2014 Share Posted 16 November , 2014 Can anyone identify my wife's grandfathers regiment from the attached photo? His name was Arthur Smith and judging by the ages of the children in the photo it was taken about 1915. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 November , 2014 Share Posted 16 November , 2014 Can anyone identify my wife's grandfathers regiment from the attached photo? His name was Arthur Smith and judging by the ages of the children in the photo it was taken about 1915. Thanks The buttons look as if they might be black and the cap badge is reminiscent of the Rifle Brigade's. The 1914 pattern leather waist belt with snake clasp would indicate a member of a war-raised battalion from one of the so-called 'Kitchener's Armies'. The style of service dress cap that he is wearing fits with a date of 1915, whilst the Kitchener Armies were still undergoing training in Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Standard Bearer Posted 16 November , 2014 Share Posted 16 November , 2014 (edited) From the cap badge, I'd go with Rifle Brigade, too (take a look at my Avatar). Edited 16 November , 2014 by Standard Bearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 16 November , 2014 Share Posted 16 November , 2014 The RB seem to be a good start point, but do not rule out various battalions of the London Regiment, a Territorial Force only regiment, a number of whose battalions had similar shaped cap badges and also wore black buttons. If you think he might have a connection with London then we can look further at that possibility as the battalions carried a wide range of different titles connected with their earlier existence as 'Volunteer' units before 1908. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 17 November , 2014 Share Posted 17 November , 2014 Yep - I'd say Rifle Brigade, OR one of the London Regt battalions that wore the RB style badge and blackened buttons (8th Bn (Post Office Rifles), 17th Bn. (Poplar & Stepney Rifles), 19th Bn. (St Pancras) and 33rd Bn.) OR one of the Territorial Force battalions of the county regiments that did the same (e.g. Leeds Rifles - 6th & 7th West Yorks Regt; Robin Hoods Rifles - 7th Notts & Derbys Regt). There's also some much less likely possibilities way out in left field, such as the Bermuda Rifles and the New Zealand Rifle Brigade ... but probably safe to discount these! Also don't forget that the Rifle Brigade and the KRCC both recruited heavily in London, so a London connection does not automatically point to the London Regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 November , 2014 Share Posted 17 November , 2014 Yep - I'd say Rifle Brigade, OR one of the London Regt battalions that wore the RB style badge and blackened buttons (8th Bn (Post Office Rifles), 17th Bn. (Poplar & Stepney Rifles), 19th Bn. (St Pancras) and 33rd Bn.) OR one of the Territorial Force battalions of the county regiments that did the same (e.g. Leeds Rifles - 6th & 7th West Yorks Regt; Robin Hoods Rifles - 7th Notts & Derbys Regt). There's also some much less likely possibilities way out in left field, such as the Bermuda Rifles and the New Zealand Rifle Brigade ... but probably safe to discount these! Also don't forget that the Rifle Brigade and the KRCC both recruited heavily in London, so a London connection does not automatically point to the London Regiment. Yes indeed, but I was trying not to overly baffle the poster with too much information and perhaps discourage him so early in his search. One step, at a time, as they say..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob54 Posted 17 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2014 Thanks very much for all the information. Further information which may help:- 1. Just before the war he was living in Bethnal Green 2. He was born in 1889 in Whitechapel 3. His was a cook. 4. There is a family story than he was a POW on the Belgium/Holland border sometime during WW1. Thanks again Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 17 November , 2014 Share Posted 17 November , 2014 Is there something on his pocket or is this a glitch in the photo? Close ups of head and chest might help. What were his family's names? Do you have a 1911 Census Record at all? Rgds Tim D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 November , 2014 Share Posted 17 November , 2014 Thanks very much for all the information. Further information which may help:- 1. Just before the war he was living in Bethnal Green 2. He was born in 1889 in Whitechapel 3. His was a cook. 4. There is a family story than he was a POW on the Belgium/Holland border sometime during WW1. Thanks again Bob The local regiment to those areas was the 17th Battalion of the London Regiment (Tower Hamlets Rifles) and they would be a good fit too for your photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Certainly 17/Londons is a strong contender, but don't rule out the Rifle Brigade at this stage. My KRRC Roll of Honour has 55 casualties where Bethnal Green is explicitly mentioned in the family information. All battalions represented except 4/KRRC. The RB roll will likely be similar. Both the RB and the KRRC had strong recruiting traditions in the East End. Incidentally, the pic is of the 17/Londons' post WW1 1926 badge after the unit was renamed back to the Tower Hamlets Rifles (which title dated back to its VRC roots anyway) and had the Great War battle honours included. The Great War version was much plainer ... 17th Bn. London Regiment (Poplar & Stepney Rifles) (K&K 1847) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Are any of his medals still in the family? If so, post the exact inscriptions if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Is there something on his pocket or is this a glitch in the photo? Close ups of head and chest might help. Tim D I think it's the crossbar of a watch chain inserted through the pocket flap's buttonhole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 I thought so too Mark. I know its in the wrong spot, but wondered if it might be an Imperial Service Badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 I thought so too Mark. I know its in the wrong spot, but wondered if it might be an Imperial Service Badge. If it is - it's on the wrong side. Not unheard of but not correct! The Imperial Service badge was worn on the right breast. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Certainly 17/Londons is a strong contender, but don't rule out the Rifle Brigade at this stage. My KRRC Roll of Honour has 55 casualties where Bethnal Green is explicitly mentioned in the family information. All battalions represented except 4/KRRC. The RB roll will likely be similar. Both the RB and the KRRC had strong recruiting traditions in the East End. Incidentally, the pic is of the 17/Londons' post WW1 1926 badge after the unit was renamed back to the Tower Hamlets Rifles (which title dated back to its VRC roots anyway) and had the Great War battle honours included. The Great War version was much plainer ... London Regiment 17 Btn (Tower Hamlets) - 05 date uncertain QC Militaria.jpg 17th Bn. London Regiment (Poplar & Stepney Rifles) (K&K 1847) Yes I agree that it could just as easily be the Rifle Brigade, as is self evident with the very similar shape of the badge, a fact that had already been made clear to the original poster. Personally I did not feel the need to repeat the same information as it often confuses the layman rather than informs him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Imperial Service Tablet usually worn above the right jacket breast pocket - I reckon it is a watch chain bar. Most people are right handed and it is easier to check the time with the watch in the left breast pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Agreed, but I have seen pictures of them worn all over the shop! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 If it is - it's on the wrong side. Not unheard of but not correct! The Imperial Service badge was worn on the right breast. Chris Exactly - same thought re the Imperial Service badge had occurred to me also, but that's why I dismissed it and decided it was the T-bar on the end of a watch chain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Yes I agree that it could just as easily be the Rifle Brigade, as is self evident with the very similar shape of the badge, a fact that had already been made clear to the original poster. Personally I did not feel the need to repeat the same information as it often confuses the layman rather than informs him. Better to risk confusion than have the poster only research one line of enquiry. Both Andy and I have had personal experience of helping relatives who've gone down London Regt blind alleys on the advice of others and their ancestor has turned out to be KRR or RB. In this case, all viable possibilities should be kept open till evidence arrives that closes any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Better to risk confusion than have the poster only research one line of enquiry. Both Andy and I have had personal experience of helping relatives who've gone down London Regt blind alleys on the advice of others and their ancestor has turned out to be KRR or RB. In this case, all viable possibilities should be kept open till evidence arrives that closes any of them. The potential variations had already been made very clear to the poster. You are simply repeating the same thing...ad nauseam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 19 November , 2014 Share Posted 19 November , 2014 Oh give it a rest Frogsmile. This is all very pertinent information which simply outlines the various possibilities, not clarified elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 19 November , 2014 Share Posted 19 November , 2014 Oh give it a rest Frogsmile. This is all very pertinent information which simply outlines the various possibilities, not clarified elsewhere. Yes, over and over and over again....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 19 November , 2014 Share Posted 19 November , 2014 You're certainly on my case, aren't you? Have I offended you somehow Frogsmile? Your reaction seems disproportionate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 19 November , 2014 Share Posted 19 November , 2014 To try and get back on track before the spank fairy arrives. Did he survive? Can you give his wifes name? Some records might be indexed in her name, eg service or pension records etc. As I only have access to Ancestry this is one of the things you have to learn to live with. Is there a photographers name on the pic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 19 November , 2014 Share Posted 19 November , 2014 Thanks very much for all the information. Further information which may help:- .. .. 4. There is a family story than he was a POW on the Belgium/Holland border sometime during WW1. Thanks again Bob A couple of hours searching the Red Cross POW records for 'Arthur Smith' 'Rifle Brigade' proved just too big a task I'm afraid. I think I'm at a dead stop unless Bob can give us some more leads. Some detail on the family may help us tap into the census and genealogy angle and that could lead into some birth/marriage/death register entries or baptism records. These are well covered on-line for the London area and occasionally a man's military unit is mentioned if he (e.g.) acts as a witness. There's also the Absent Voters Lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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