msdt Posted 11 November , 2014 Share Posted 11 November , 2014 Got this last Sunday - liked the leather!!! A shortened German S98nA from 1903, blade length is 29 cm. Is this a Turkish job? Done some time after WW1? Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 12 November , 2014 Share Posted 12 November , 2014 Hard to say when or why it was cutdown. It may not have been Turkish work, no sign of marks or serials. The 'standard' Turkish rework during the 30's was ~24/25cm blade. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 12 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 12 November , 2014 Thanks S>S, wondered about the lack of any serial numbers. Could remain a bit of a mystery then. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 November , 2014 Share Posted 13 November , 2014 A very nice find! Especially with that scabbard! I don't think it has been 'Turked' though. My experience is that Turkey received 98/05's (almost all of these being Waffenfabrik '17), and a variety of Erstaz types, but no 98's - I could be wrong: that's just my experience. In addition, all the 'Turked' 98/05's that I know of also received a metal scabbard, although I do have a Mannlicher '95 that was given a 'Turked' leather M.90 scabbard! Also, I don't think the Turks put that particular type of pointed 'false edge' on when they shortened their long bayonets, or at least I can't remember seeing one: they were generally more rounded (see photograph of examples of Turked 98/05's in a friend's collection and one of Carl 'Old Smithy's) - although I wouldn't be surprised if somebody can contradict me on that! And finally, the Turked examples were, as SS observed, 'knife-bayonet' size, at about 25 cm. Maybe this was broken and then cut-down in German service? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 13 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2014 Thanks Trajan - I guess I need to edit the post's title now with all the input to 'Non-Turked .......'!!! I can see who did this is beginning to look like it could remain a mystery. The bayonet and scabbard were in pretty good nick when they were shortened though - hence my original attraction to the leather with its fully intact stitching etc. Oh well, another item on the back burner awaiting some future revelation! Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Thanks Trajan - I guess I need to edit the post's title now with all the input to 'Non-Turked .......'!!! I can see who did this is beginning to look like it could remain a mystery. The bayonet and scabbard were in pretty good nick when they were shortened though - hence my original attraction to the leather with its fully intact stitching etc. Oh well, another item on the back burner awaiting some future revelation! Well, wouldn't change the title, as it is wide enought o attract another person with another example. It might remain a bit of mystery, but you can coin up a nice story around the shorterning - it is certainly a very nice looking piece, lovely clear markings on both parts - and all shortening professionally done! Certainly a conversation piece - and you have a nice regimental on the scabbard - 28.R.1.259, so Infanterie-Regiment von Goeben (2. Rheinisches) Nr.28, at: http://genwiki.genealogy.net/IR_28. Back-burners waiting for more information... Yes, we all have them... I'll try and put up one of mine later, along with a P.1888 I recently acquired which is quite fun! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Here you go Tony! Two examples from a Swedish web site - http://www.gotavapen.se/gota/artiklar/98bayonets/98bayonets1.htm Both have blade-lengths of around 29 mm. The web-site owner reckons they were shortened after being broken in combat... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Haselgrove Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Julian, I don't have much time at present but I think you have Carter Vol.11. Assuming so, have a look at pages 127 and 128 for a bit of extra information regarding these cut-down bayonets. Regards, Michael. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Thanks Michael! Twixt kids / footie-on-TV / cooking, I have only just now managed to get a look at Carter vol II. He seems to be hedging his bets there on p. 127, noting the variety in length in these seven naval / marine examples, from 20.3 to 30.5, with one only at 29.2, indicating that the variety in length doesn't look like an official shortening programme, while the relative lack of infantry-marked short examples mitigates against these being re-pointed weapons after breakage in service... Another avenue for somebody to explore! Thanks again - and hopefully tomorrow I will put up the regular (but unmarked) 98 along with some other nice finds I picked up in Turkey this summer but which I haven't had a chance to report on yet, owing to being busy elsewhere! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 18 November , 2014 Share Posted 18 November , 2014 Thanks again Michael - being home in Turkey for a few days I just took Carter vol II with me to the TV room (big kid watching a footie match) and opened it at random and p.194 has a section of Turkish re-works of 98's and kS98s. The 'standard' blade length for a 'Turked' bayonet is about 25 mm, and re-worked bayonets usually have a new crossguard with muzzle ring fitted for the Turkish Mauser rifles (not always done - lots of Turked 98/05's don't have one). Carter shows two 98 n.A. that have been Turked on p. 195, both with modified grips / handles also, these being shortened so that the rivet hole from the original crossguard shows in the ricasso. I'll try and scan these tomorrow, kids and other duties permitting. What I will also try to do is to see what other examples Carter gives of shortened 98's in post GW use. More to the beloved point, though - Tony, yours is pretty certainly not a 'Turked' bayonet! But leave the title as is! JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 19 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2014 Hi Julian, Thanks for the pictures above. I am now fairly certain that my bayonet was shortened by the Germans during WW1. I had a chat with Roy Williams on Sunday, and he referred me to some examples in his book, The Collectors Book of German Bayonets 1680 - 1945 Part One. In this there are some very similar examples, though with blade lengths of 26 and 27 cm. He says that shortening S98's was common in WW1 as they were just not very practical to wear. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 November , 2014 Share Posted 21 November , 2014 ... I had a chat with Roy Williams on Sunday, and he referred me to some examples in his book, The Collectors Book of German Bayonets 1680 - 1945 Part One. In this there are some very similar examples, though with blade lengths of 26 and 27 cm. He says that shortening S98's was common in WW1 as they were just not very practical to wear. As it was, yesterday morning, just before leaving for the UK, I checked in with Roy's vol.1 and saw those, but didn't make a note of the page numbers... The unit-marked ones that Carter knew about all were all for the Imperial Navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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