Royal Horse Guards

[GraemeClarke]

Morning

Would anyone be able to post the War Diary, please,

For

Royal Horse Guards on 30 October 1914

(Just spent ages on N&M but still cannot find it in WO95/1156

many thanks,

Regards,

Graeme

[Guest]

N&MP have unfortunately inherited some of the old unbundled war diaries. The Cavalry diaries in particular are difficult to find and navigate as the diaries have not been split into separate unit diaries. They have also inherited some of the more shambolic files that have not yet been sorted out.

Royal Horse Guards War Diary 30th Oct 1914.

8 am, shrapnel and heavy shells began to burst all round the Brigade HQ and the ridge was very heavily shelled. Several men came in wounded to say that the C Sqn had been blown out of their trenches and that the Germans were advancing.

Gen KAVANAGH ordered the Reserve to take up the line of trenches in the valley to cover a retreat.

B Sqn were also obliged to retire

2nd Lt Hon F LAMBTON reported as probably killed.

The Brigade retired from ZANDVOORDE ridge towards KLEIN ZILLEBEKE under cover of the fire of K and C Batteries

6th CAV BDE and SCOTS GREYS came up to take a covering position. Our Brigade concentrated at KLEIN ZILLEBEKE.

D & B Sqns went down to the CHATEAU to reinforce the ROYALS and take ammunition.

Joined up with the ROYALS and 4th HUSSARS near the Railway. Brigade was shortly withdrawn and part of the 4th GUARDS BDE came up in support. The Regiment billeted near VERBRANDEN MOLEN

Lord WORSLEY of the Machine Gun Section and the whole of Lord GROSVENOR's Squadron and C Squadron 2nd LIFE GUARDS were reported missing. Capt J F HARRISON and Lt A MACKINTOSH wounded while going to reinforce the ROYALS.

Surg. Major B PARES slightly wounded at ZANDVOORDE. Total Casualties 30th: 55.

6608 Tpr R NEVIN was recommended for gallant conduct in the field and was afterwards awarded the DCM.

[ss002d6252]

N&MP have unfortunately inherited some of the old unbundled war diaries. The Cavalry diaries in particular are difficult to find and navigate as the diaries have not been split into separate unit diaries. They have also inherited some of the more shambolic files that have not yet been sorted out.

They're certainly not the best presentation of the diaries I have come across.

Craig

[Guest]

The challenge with Graeme's search for the RHG at the end of Oct 1914 is that you need to know it was part of 3rd Cav Div, 7th Cav Bde until 21st Nov 1914 when it was transferred to the 8th Cav Bde. Using N&MA's Unit search filtering 3rd Cav Div, 7th Cav Bde etc and Royal Horse Guards generates a page. When clicked its shows the 1st Life Guards. You have to know that 1st Life Guards (and 2nd Life Guards) were in the same Brigade and the files are the old TNA files laid out in order of precedence then chronologically..all 1167 pages ..so the RHG dairy for Oct 1914 is probably some pages in. There is a filter, however when Royal Horse Guards is entered, it shows a page for Nov 1917 on indexed page 385. By this date the RHG had returned to the 7th Cav Bde (on 7th Nov 1917) from 8th Cav Div (but you would have to know that) and it formed the 3rd (RHG) Bn Guards MG.Regt so it seems the fragment of the diary for 7th October-21st Nov 1914 is not in the 7th Cav Bde bundle..or at least it is not properly indexed. In theory it should follow the last diary entry for the 2nd Life Guards, but it doesn't. Trying the same approach with the 8th Cav Bde bundle only shows the dates from Nov 1914 onwards... however we know the RHG diary for Oct 1914 exists because it is in the more recent unbundled diaries as WO 95/1156/3...but searching 1156 in the general N&MA search function does not generate the required file.

My only guess is that the older TNA bundled files missed the RHG Oct 1914 diary and the recent unbundled files captured it. If N&MA is using the old TNA files, this might explain why it is elusive. My conjecture.

The first file I looked for on N&MA was 11th Hussars using the Unit search options and 1st Cav Div, 1st Cav Bde filters. The offered file takes you to the 2nd Dragoon Guards indexed pages and you have to scroll through 12 pages to get to the 11th Hussars. People without a forensic knowledge of the ORBAT of 1st Cav Div would be forgiven for thinking they are in the wrong place. Incidentally 9th Lancers is transcribed as 9th Haven for some reason under the first index pages of WO 95/1109 on the N&MA pages.

2nd Dragoon Guards is WO 95/1109/1, 5th Dragoon Guards is WO 95/1109/2 and 11th Hussars is WO 95/1109/3 under the current TNA filing, and all delivered as separate files. As recently as Nov 2013 all three were bundled within a single file labelled as WO 95/1109 (I have both versions). So it appears that N&MA's files in this case are the bundled files '1109' rather than TNA's new unbundled files 1109/1, 1109/2 and 1109/3. I have trawled the N&MA site for the Cavalry and it seems this is quite common. I am not sure why N&MA is using the old files when there are better, more organised files that are defined by unit.. I had assumed that N&MA had done its own scanning but it seems it is using old TNA files in this case. I can only assume it is using old TNA files as they look identical. I may be wrong on this.

They have also inherited a few TNA howlers. Here's a challenge: Try and find late August 1914 for the 2nd Bn York and Lancasters (6th Div, 16th Inf Bde) on TNA or N&MP. Possibly the most shambolic file TNA has produced. They (TNA) do know about it and I am assured some weeks ago that they are sorting it out. Actually 9th September. Strangely the N&MA indexers didn't appear to spot that May 1915 should not follow Sep 1914. Rather than sort it out they have simply followed the TNA file (dis)order.

I think the N&MA search facility is better than TNA's but unless the files are split into separate units it might be potentially challenging and very time consuming, even for the initiated. One hopes the RHG Oct 1914 example is the exception rather than the rule. The file one 'lands' on is not always the unit one is searching for. Also it does not seem particularly sensible to index a jumbled file and not put it into the correct order.

That aside, it is useful to have everything at one's fingertips. N&MA has a better search function but the files are better organised at TNA. It's a marginal call and both would do well from utilising the best parts of both systems. MG

[GraemeClarke]

Morning

Many thanks, Martin, really appreciate your help in finding the War Diary entry and for posting it. Cheers.

Ive started using Arcre (http://www.arcre.com/wdsearch) to find the reference number and using that to find the diary but I'm still struggling with some.

Having said that, at the price, its a most wonderful resource, especially if you need only 1 date from many diaries.

Regards,

Graeme