trajan Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 A Turkish dealer I know has sent me details of this rather sad looking HQ for comment - he indicated that it may have come with a group of bayonets bought in Bulgaria a decade or so back. It has certainly seen some excessive use/wear: the metal is pitted; the blade tip is slightly bent; the left ricasso is worn so badly that the crown and pattern number can only just be made out; the right ricasso is in slightly better condition with what looks like a crown/35/E (number is not entirely clear) and EFD marks, plus a SOS mark. To be honest I thought it might be an excavated relic, but the grips look ok, and we can ignore the later scabbard with which the bayonet could have been 'married' at any time. The one thing that did puzzle me was the serial number on the crossguard. I don't recall ever seeing a P.1907 with a serial number there - but then I have limited experience of these bayonets. The only other similarly marked bayonets I can think of right now (early Sunday morning!) are Greek, e.g., the Y.1879 and the like, with serial numbers the same size - but on the left side of the crossguard and the other way up... Any comments from m'-much-more-learned friends? EDIT: added topic tags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Trajan, some early Australian marked hooked quillon 1907s had serial numbers on the cross guards in the "1MD 1234" format. However it looks like this bayonet just has numbers, and the sold out of service mark would typically be on the pommel if it was Australian. Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Thanks Jonathan, so that's one country to eliminate from the list of possibles! I tried to enhance the serial number, but this is the best I can do with my box. BTW, any thoughts on the extreme wear on this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 I agree its probably not a relic in the truest sense of the word, but then i do own a P07 bayonet found recently in a farmer's field near Passchendaele which still has intact wooden grips - albeit in slightly more worn condition than this example. I suspect that poor storage for 100 years could result in a bayonet in this condition, and it looks like someone has given it a rough and ready clean with some wire wool (or similar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawdoc34 Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Sure I have seen numbered crossguards like that before Julian but cant for the life of me remember where, will be playing on my mind now until it clicks. Are there no other visible markings? You thinking of adding it to your collection? On the topic of collections, the dragon walked in on me when I had the german part out with a view to starting quick clean/catalogue & noticed how many 98/05 & 84/98 that I had secretly ammassed in contravention to the limits that we agreed on the last time I stepped out of the British/Commonwealth, Turk & added Austro/Hungarian (she aint found the 15 m95 bayonets yet) &German. Looks like I may be having a bit of a reluctant clear out, inc couple of high eared sawbacks etc. If it comes to that I will let GWF members have 1st refusal Aleck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 19 October , 2014 Share Posted 19 October , 2014 The one thing that did puzzle me was the serial number on the crossguard. I don't recall ever seeing a P.1907 with a serial number there - Trajan, I have an Enfield Pattern 1907 Sword-Bayonet still with its hooked quillon attached, which has Australian service issue marking, and has a serial number stamped on the crossguard ( see attached photos ). You may also want to look closely on the pommel for any possible Australian service marking, a WD Broad Arrow within a ' D ' ( see attached photo ). Regards, LF 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2014 Thanks JScott and LF - I'll see if I can get some better photographs of the serial number and also of the pommel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 October , 2014 ...You thinking of adding it to your collection? On the topic of collections, the dragon walked in on me when I had the german part out with a view to starting quick clean/catalogue & noticed how many 98/05 & 84/98 that I had secretly ammassed in contravention to the limits that we agreed on the last time I stepped out of the British/Commonwealth, Turk & added Austro/Hungarian (she aint found the 15 m95 bayonets yet) &German. Looks like I may be having a bit of a reluctant clear out, inc couple of high eared sawbacks etc. If it comes to that I will let GWF members have 1st refusal Hi Aleck, Not sure about adding this one to my collection. But it is odd enough that - pending identification - even in this state it could be worth having as a conversation piece! Trajan PS: now just you hold on to those German babies until I get to the UK! Have sent you a PM direct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2014 I have an Enfield Pattern 1907 Sword-Bayonet still with its hooked quillon attached, which has Australian service issue marking, and has a serial number stamped on the crossguard ( see attached photos ). You may also want to look closely on the pommel for any possible Australian service marking, a WD Broad Arrow within a ' D ' ( see attached photo ). Well, I now have some slightly better photographs of this ricasso's on this piece - but forget to get a pommel marking, although the owner assures me that there is no sign of anything there. The serial number is V 20845 - just about visible in the photographs and the dealer confirms it - and those are Enfield marks and a SOS mark on the obverse ricasso. The serial numbers are quite a different font from LF's, but do look rather like the font used on those Australian 'MD'-marked bayonets. The revese ricasso is a mess but there seems to be the top and foot of a '2' barely visible beneath the '7' of the '1907'. I have had a hard look at this, and although the whole ricasso is badly pitted, these marks are in the right place for a year number. There is also the faintest hint of an 'EFD' mark'... Again, right size and placement... So, looks genuine - but could those serial numbers be Australian? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Before I get accused of 'catching at straws' I thought it might be useful to put that reverse ricasso up somewhat larger. This should make it clearer why I suspect that the year is '[191]2', and why it is an EFD product - I was thinking this mainly from spacing and location of these marks. Of course, I am happy to be corrected! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Trajan, The Western Australia Volunteers used a ' V ' mark ? However, we would need a sample of that mark to compare, assuming this bayonet even has an Australian connection ? Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2014 The Western Australia Volunteers used a ' V ' mark ? However, we would need a sample of that mark to compare, assuming this bayonet even has an Australian connection ? Thanks LF. A similar thought had crossed my mind. I don't have S&R to hand (left most of my bayonet books with a mate while I'm on sabbatical), but I suppose it could be for Victoria barracks, NSW? Of course, there is no evidence at all that it has any Australian connections - and the fact that it is 'married' with a post-WW1 type scabbard with WW2 black paint, does not help. The bayonet is, after all, very badly pitted and corroded and has been sitting around somewhere for a while before meeting that scabbard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Trajan, looks like an early marking to Victoria. SS started a great thread on Early Australian markings a while back - should have more details there. Slightly odd in that SOS mark is on the ricasso and would normally be on the pommel but as we know rules are there to be broken. If I found one of those in turkey I would definitely purchase it. How much does the dealer want? Cheers, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 This is the thread started by SS http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=189766 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire Fusilier Posted 15 November , 2014 Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Trajan, J came up with a good link, check out post # 70 on that link as it has a HQ with the ' V ' mark. Regards, LF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2014 Oh, VERY well done you two! Then I will make an offer on it - it is not in not good nick but it is certainly a great "curiosity" piece! Doesn't quite - alas - compare with the one shown in the SS thread, and would need to be married with the right scabbard - and I would like to be certain on the marking being 'Victoria'. But as it stands, it would fit nicely into my 'Bayonets with a putative WW1 history' display! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 15 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 15 November , 2014 It's in the bag and coming soon... Not the nicest of P.1907 HQ examples, but it will fit VERY nicely alongside my one other 'Gallipoli-used' bayonet, a P.1888 marked for the Manchester Regiment! Thanks again for the help and leads, J and LF, exemplifying what this forum is all about: shared knowledge - even when, as in this case, it is bayonet specific! TTFN Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 16 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 16 November , 2014 Looking forward to its arrival... A potentially Gallipoli used bayonet will be a nice addition, no matter its condition. But to more important matters... That SOS mark - apart from being on the ricasso and not on the pommel as usual. I am reminded of that P14 frog that SS had with his nice hookie - he hasn't posted anything about the hookie yet but the frog is discussed at: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=216389&hl= SS was thinking (I assume) that GB SOS material made its way to the Antipodes. But, might a SOS bayonet like this have gone the same route? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 19 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 19 November , 2014 It arrived this morning and I can confirm from close inspection that the serial number is V 20845; there is an EFD mark on the reverse ricasso; and that is a '2', and so 1912 manufacture. No sign of an Australian D with arrow mark on the pommel, although that is a messy area... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msdt Posted 19 November , 2014 Share Posted 19 November , 2014 Love the possible historic connection, Trajan. One day I hope to find something similar - I don't have any HQ 1907's, and will not be paying what good condition ones seem to fetch on the market these days! A good find. Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 21 November , 2014 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2014 Thanks Tony - of course it is only a possible/probable connection, but even so! As for prices of the good condition ones, well, yes, way over the top... They do occasionally appear over in Turkey - four years or so back, before I became a 'serious'(!) collector, when all I had were a few 98/05's and Mannlicher '95's, I let one slip through my fingers with its correctly marked scabbard for less than the equivalent of GBP 250. At the time : I had no idea what a HQ was and the equivalent of GBP 150 was the tops I wanted to pay... Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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