The drilling of a pommel clearance hole in Pattern 1907 bayonets

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I now have a copy of the List of Changes 17692, which relates to the drilling of the clearance hole through the pommel of the Pattern 1907 Sword Bayonet.

" 17692 - Sword Bayonet, Pattern 1907, Mark I. 5 Jan 1916

23 Feb 1916

Drilling of clearance hole through pommel

In future manufacture, sword-bayonets of the above mentioned pattern ( LoC 14170 ) will have a hole drilled through the pommel to facilitate the removal of mud, dirt, &c., that may accumulate in the bottom of the mortice for the sword bar of the rifle nose-cap, and so prevent the bolt of the sword-bayonet shooting and locking the sword-bayonet on the rifle.

In workshops where the necessary machinery and tools are available the hole may be drilled, as occasion offers, through the pommel to the size and in the position shown in the accompanying drawing, the position first being marked off. "

LF

[trajan]

And thanks for putting this up on a new thread - that is needed!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

And thanks for putting this up on a new thread - that is needed!

Trajan,

Thanks, there is nothing better than the ' official ' wording.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

Here is the drawing to go with that:

[trajan]

And here is a P.1907 dated 11/15 with the clearance hole in the wrong place! "Regulation distance from the grip? What regulation distance from the grip?". This one belongs to a fellow-collector here, and as can be seen the handle and pommel are stamped 'D 385', a mystery marking to me and so I'll post that on a new thread...

[Lancashire Fusilier]

And here is a P.1907 dated 11/15 with the clearance hole in the wrong place! "Regulation distance from the grip? What regulation distance from the grip?". This one belongs to a fellow-collector here, and as can be seen the handle and pommel are stamped 'D 385', a mystery marking to me and so I'll post that on a new thread...

Trajan,

Remember that some of those bayonet modifications were done ' in the field ' by Armourers sometimes working in tents, who probably never saw that LoC diagram, all they knew was a hole needed to be drilled in the pommel, which is what they did, as in the case of your example, they may have also been trying to avoid the pommel markings.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

Yes, LF, I am fully aware of the probability of it being done in the field! But I thought it worthwhile to show and to stress the point that there are observable variations in the positioning of the CH - some people believe that regulations were followed to the micro-point!

Note, incidentally, that it looks like the pommel marking post-dates the CH - when the die for the middle number was struck, it edged off into the edge of the CH. Well, that's my interpretation although it is odd that the number was done in a single line rather than that triangular arrangement!

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Yes, LF, I am fully aware of the probability of it being done in the field

Trajan,

Armourers working ' in the field '.

Regards,

LF

[trajan]

When I was a BScout sleeping in a Bell tent we never has a wooden base like that! But, yes, its is a workshop - and I do LOVE those tents - sometimes see them in nomadic encampments in Turkey.

Thanks for the photograph!

[Khaki]

Great photo, the standing soldier appears to be inletting the butt stock with a brace and bit, maybe for a brass disc ??

khaki

[MikeyH]

Lancs,

Yes, another great photo, parts of a dismantled SMLE lie in front of the kneeling armourer. Is the other item part of a Vickers m/c gun? Also note the spirit stove to the left, ready for a brew-up.

Mike.

[Andrew Upton]

Yes, another great photo, parts of a dismantled SMLE lie in front of the kneeling armourer. Is the other item part of a Vickers m/c gun?

They are all parts of a dismantled Lewis gun, not a SMLE or Vickers - the cooling fins are a dead giveaway.

[Khaki]

Great photo, the standing soldier appears to be inletting the butt stock with a brace and bit, maybe for a brass disc ??

khaki

Looking online I saw a photo of a lewis Gun with a brass disc in the butt stock, I can see no other reason for using a brace & bit, so maybe that is indeed what he's doing. Interesting to see (if I am correct) it being done 'in the field.

[trajan]

Steady on chaps! Clearance holes only here! But yes, great photograph and even greater observations on what those lads are up to!

[Beerhunter]

The soldeir on the left is holding a Lewis receiver.

[Khaki]

Sorry Trajan/LF,

But interesting to see where and when the clearance holes were also done, drilling a straight hole in the pommel for presumed large numbers of bayonets without benefit of a 'jig' would have been an awkward procedure and may account for apparent misplaced holes on some bayonets.

khaki

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Sorry Trajan/LF,

But interesting to see where and when the clearance holes were also done, drilling a straight hole in the pommel for presumed large numbers of bayonets without benefit of a 'jig' would have been an awkward procedure and may account for apparent misplaced holes on some bayonets.

khaki

khaki,

No need to be sorry, as when I started this Thread, it was relating to the bayonet clearance hole, however, I like to see a Thread expanded and developed to include other related aspects of the topic, so I was pleased to see the other posts relating to the work of the Armourers and the weapons they maintained as well as their drilling holes in bayonet pommels. It makes for a more interesting Thread, plus I always learn a lot !

Regards,

LF

[calibre792x57.y]

Having been an armourer myself (although not in 1916!) I doubt whether the clearing hole in the bayonet pommel shown was made by any British armourer. These drawings were published and widely circulated to the units where the work would be done and we were expected to comply with the official modifications exactly. I doubt whether any jig would be required for such a simple modification. The appropriate spot would be marked off using the dimensions given, centre punched and drilled using a pillar drill. We were expected to work within 0.001 inch in handwork. Many bayonets would never have come in for repair or storage of course, in which case the hole would not appear. SW

[Andy Wade]

Having been an armourer myself (although not in 1916!) I doubt whether the clearing hole in the bayonet pommel shown was made by any British armourer. These drawings were published and widely circulated to the units where the work would be done and we were expected to comply with the official modifications exactly. I doubt whether any jig would be required for such a simple modification. The appropriate spot would be marked off using the dimensions given, centre punched and drilled using a pillar drill. We were expected to work within 0.001 inch in handwork. Many bayonets would never have come in for repair or storage of course, in which case the hole would not appear. SW

Within 0.001 inch?

We had to work smack on!

Apologies, old engineering joke, couldn't resist. Loving the thread and great observations on the picture, which is excellent. I'll get back in me box now...

[trajan]

Sorry Trajan/LF,

But interesting to see where and when the clearance holes were also done, drilling a straight hole in the pommel for presumed large numbers of bayonets without benefit of a 'jig' would have been an awkward procedure and may account for apparent misplaced holes on some bayonets.

khaki

No need to apologise, Khaki - just a joke! It IS a great photograph! Perhaps LF can tag the thread to match up with appropriate details? E.g., 'Armourers at work', 'Lewis gun'???