Abbreviation on Service Record - 'P.B.A.'

[Nickmetcalfe]

Hello All,

I need some help with interpreting a service record. The soldier re-enlisted in 1919 and his record is annotated:

'Discharged having reenlisted into P.B.A. Rifles under AO IV of 10.12.18.'

A second entry below it reads:

'Discharged Sgt 10-2-19 on Re-enlistment into P.B.A. under AO 4/1919 for Royal Irish Rifles till 31st March 1923.'

The question is - what does P.B.A. stand for?

Nick

[kenf48]

Might help if you gave us his name

Ken

[Nickmetcalfe]

Might help if you gave us his name

Ken

5/4732 Sgt Hammie Neill R Ir Rif. (became 7006111 when the renumbering took place). His records aren't on-line.

I have looked at a significant number of service records and this is the first time that I have seen this abbreviation. It is written on both copies of his record. On one copy both entries are in the same hand and on the other the entries are in different hands. All quite clearly state 'P.B.A.'

[rksimpson]

Hi

Can you post the page concerned please?

regards

Robert

[rksimpson]

Hi again

His Medal Index Card is online, says 2 RIR as a Corporal and Sergeant 4732, then 7006111 in Royal Ulster Rifles -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Rifles

Also on back is his address - serving as 7006111 Sergeant 2nd Royal Irish Rifles Cairo(crossed out) Depot Armagh

regards

Robert

(Still does not answer your question)

[KevinBattle]

With the Irish connection, could Hamilton Neill (his full name) have been with something along the lines of Protestant Brotherhood Association?

It would appear to be some official unit if referred to in Army Orders, but if expert Pals are floundering a bit, I'm puzzled why no one can find this PBA reference elsewhere.

He was living at 114 Victoria Street, Lurgan when he signed the Ulster Covenant, but still not answering your question....

[TEW]

Snipped TEW

(became 7006111 when the renumbering took place).

As he has a GSM 'Iraq' then the 7006111 is maybe a post war number.

He has a WO100/417 record for the GSM. His number is still 4732. The 7006111 is IDd as a Roll number on the WO100.

Ancestry being what it is, his GSM is listed under Napoleonic Wars. You can find it manually under:

Europe ▷ Napoleonic Wars 1793-1815 ▷ Non-Commissioned Officers and Men ▷ 44th to 74th Foot. page 232 of 549

Perhaps his records are with MOD

TEW

[Nickmetcalfe]

Dear All,

Thanks for the efforts. By way of background - I have researched literally thousands of WW1 soldiers and looked at hundreds of service records; I cannot remember seeing this abbreviation before, but I haven't examined a record in quite as much detail. Hamilton (Hammie as he appears in all of his records, and as as he was known) Neill was my great-great-uncle. I have his records in their entirety, and have searched every avenue that you have all been down. I have also examined any surviving records of others who re-enlisted that I know of (no results) - I have not yet searched other surviving records for Royal Irish Rifles to see if there is an explanation. I have even checked Howard's book and Hansard. I have not checked the text of the Army Orders that deal with re-enlistment in 1918/19. The reference is not, I am sure, linked to anything outside the Army - there is nothing in his record that is out of the ordinary, except for that abbreviation.

The closest logical guess is 'Permanent British Army'. That term appears once in Hansard in a question/reply in 1919.

It is noteworthy that it has been written by three people in two separate copies of his record; that implies that it wasn't an abbreviation 'made up' by a single clerk.

I believe the word 'into' is significant and negates thoughts I had about bounty payments.

I have attached the two parts of his record that show the reference. Before anyone asks - there is nothing else on those pages that even hint at what it may be. He was at the Depot from September 1918, was posted to the 3rd Bn in May 1919 and was posted back to the 2nd Bn in June 1919, where he remained until 1924 when he was posted back to the Depot as an instructor.

Thanks for the continued detective work.

Nick

[eddiec]

Hi All

 

I came across this topic trying to find out what the abbreviation P.B.A. was as it is listed on the Medal Index Card of a man I was looking into.

 

Did anyone discovered what it was?

 

Eddie

[jay dubaya]

Eddie I think the answer is Permanent British Army as quoted from Nick above.

 

J

[kenf48]

I think 'Permanent British Army' is still the best guess.  Perhaps it was used to distinguish it from reenlistment for the Army of Occupation  which was another avenue.

 

Army Order 4 of 1919, which was the terms of reenlistment as in the extract posted above dealt with reenlistment and is outlined in this thread 

and on the LLT http://www.1914-1918.net/reenlistment.html

 

The man named on the mic retained his original number and was then renumbered with a seven digit number which were allocated in 1920.  As Chris notes on the LLT page this means there is a good chance his records are with the MOD

 

Ken

 

[charlie962]

Interesting that both are ex R Ir Rifles.

[Ron Clifton]

Although conceptually they are the same, I suspect that "Postwar British Army" may be a more likely explanation.

 

Ron

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I'm not so sure about 'Postwar/Permanent British Army', and think it means something else, although I can't suggest anything.

As Nick mentions above, he has only come across the term 'Permanent British Army' once in print.

As charlie mentions, it is strange that it is two ex-RIRs, an Ulster connection, for the usage of an abbreviation that is on the face of it pretty rare.

The 'B' for British seems to me to be superfluous. What other army would they join?

[charlie962]

It does seem like an abreviation to distinguish the British Army in Ireland from the other fighting parties in the turmoil of 1919, Republican Declaration etc ?

 

The reference in the first document above does show a re-enlistment into 'PBA Rifles under AO IV of 10/12/18' so the answer must lie there.

Edited 20 October , 2017 by charlie962

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

It does seem like an abreviation to distinguish the British Army in Ireland from the other fighting parties in the turmoil of 1919, Republican Declaration etc ?

 

The reference in the first document above does show a re-enlistment into 'PBA Rifles under AO IV of 10/12/18' so the answer must lie there.

Yes, I think it is going to be specific to Ulster for the years following 1919.

Edited 20 October , 2017 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[charlie962]

Craig's Calculator makes reference to this AO so I've asked him via pm if he has sight of the AO document and if it explains PBA.

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Craig's Calculator makes reference to this AO so I've asked him via pm if he has sight of the AO document and if it explains PBA.

 

I've not seen the original AO but press reports, which are usually accurate when reporting the AO, simply refer to the amount of the Bounty paid relative to the terms of service (as in Ron's post 2 in the earlier thread cited above).  There is no mention of the acronym 'PBA'.  

 

I agree it's probably  uniquely Irish and used to differentiate from enlistment in the auxiliaries, black and tans etc.

 

Ken

 

 

Edited 20 October , 2017 by kenf48

[Stoppage Drill]

"Post Bellum Army".

 

The term was in contemporary use, viz. this from an article entitled "Demobilisation and the Future" by Basil Clark in the 7 Dec 1918 issue of "War Illustrated" - 

 

". . . . it will be necessary therefore to have ready first new units of the post-bellum army to replace them. (Overseas Garrisons.) It follows that the soldiers.who have signed on to join the new Army must be demobilised from the old Army in time enough to give them some opportunity for leave in this country and time to travel to their future posts. On their return to the Colours will depend the demobilisation of men in foreign garrisons . . . " etc. etc.

 

The term is also used in Henry Wilson's diary for 13 Nov 1918 where he mentions raising the subject at a Cabinet meeting. He seems to use capital letters if the quotation is accurately lifted - "Post Bellum Army" - which gives it a bit of weight as a terminology then in known usage.

 

This situation fits both of the men to whom the documentation posted earlier in this topic refers. They both served on until at least the mid 1920s.

 

To "post" a man to a conceptual rather than a real unit or organisation was common enough in later years, to my knowledge, so should not be dismissed as bizarre. Non-effectives who were retained in service were "posted" to a notional "Y-List" which had various categories such as for long term sickness or AWOL.

A man who in 1918/19 had indicated his wish to serve on post-hostilities might have been earmarked as discharged (as his wartime enlistment required) and re-enlisted immediately in a holding list which might in some cases be termed "PBA".

 

Discharging a man "on paper" when in reality he served on is and was quite common. The best example is perhaps "Discharge to a Commission".

 

 

Edited 21 October , 2017 by Stoppage Drill

[MaureenE]

  Thanks for advising, I had not heard this term before.

 

There is mention of the term in a catalogue entry from the Australian War Memorial from a 1918  HMSO publication of 10 pages https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/LIB35643

Demobilization : provisional instructions regarding arrangements for- (a) the dispersal of post bellum army men, demobilizers and pivotal men at the beginning of the preliminary dispersal period, (b) allotting daily numbers for dispersal at the beginning of the general...

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Ron Clifton]

Thanks SD.

 

That thought had also occurred to me, but only after I had made my post 13, and I didn't have any references to back it up.

 

Ron

[Stoppage Drill]

I put it forward as a suggestion, for discussion. A few pieces of the jigsaw seem to fit, that's all.

 

 

[charlie962]

A very good suggestion. So what does PBA Rifles imply ?

[Stoppage Drill]

 Earmarked for/expressed a preference for a Rifle regiment ?

 

 

[Ron Clifton]

I am currently reading the military correspondence and papers of J F C Fuller and came across a reference to the "Post Bellum Tank Corps". As he was a GSO1 at the War Office at the time, I think we can take it as a definite and official expression.

 

There are also references to the need to recruit specially for the Army following the Armistice, since the vast majority of the wartime Army would be demobilised in the fairly short term, and there was still a need to maintain the normal peacetime duties of the Army, especially in India and other overseas garrisons. There is even a reference to "Mercenaries (i.e. highly paid volunteers)".

 

Ron