'The Unlucky Draft' Harold Bagnall?

[IRC Kevin]

On 23 July 1916 a draft of 87 men from 6/Cheshires was transferred to 1/5 King's Own, but unfortunately, the paperwork processing their transfer was not processed with due haste and although some had been processed by mid-August, some had still not been done by mid-September. This was known as the 'Unlucky Draft' in the battalion as almost all had left the battalion, either dead or wounded, by Christmas 1916. I think I have tracked most of those killed up to 16th September 1916, but there is still one who may have been in this draft, though I can't find any evidence to assign him thus.

4311 Pte Harold Bagnall, Died of Wounds 2 September 1916. Son of William Henry and Isabella Bagnall of 18 Mount Vernon, Poynton, Stockport.

I would be ever so grateful if anyone can cast light on whether this twenty-seven-year-old was actually serving with 6/Cheshires when fatally wounded, or was one of the Unlucky Draft.

[chaz]

http://www.stockport1914-1918.co.uk/b.php

apparently he was born 1889 in France

[Phil Evans]

All the CWGC documentation ( where incidentally, the GRR Form again refers to him as Bagnell), points to 1/6th Cheshire Regiment.

His medals were also issued under the Cheshire Regiment Roll J/2/101 B30 (WO 329/1031).

I haven't checked SDGW.

Phil

Edit: SDGW only shows 1/6th Cheshires

Edited 4 October , 2014 by Phil Evans

[IRC Kevin]

Thanks for trying to help, guys. I'm aware of John's fine website on Stockport's war dead. My problem is that all this draft who were killed with the 1/5th are down as either 6/ or 1/6 Cheshires on CWGC and Soldiers Died and appear on the Cheshires' medal roll, as for most of this draft their paperwork was unprocessed before they became casualties. For some reason, the normally quick admin process in the battalion went utterly pear-shaped in July-September 1916. (Interestingly the War Diary during that period has been copied up in bulk at a later date too, unlike other periods when it as obviously filled in on a daily basis.) It's been fairly easy to tell with the KIAs, as either John's website contains information about condolence letters and I can tell from the writer's name if they were with 1/5th King's Own, (he has also carried out considerable research into these individuals which suggests that they may be from this draft) or they were buried in a place that 1/6 Cheshires weren't serving and 1/5 King's Own were. In each of these cases there is also a discrepancy between the numbers of men the battalion report killed and the numbers of known King's Own dead, lending additional credence to these being the men. The problem with Harold Bagnall is that he died of wounds, so I can't match him to any one casualty report. I was hoping on the off-chance that someone may have come across a newspaper article which gave more information.

[Phil Evans]

Now I see the problem.

Is it possible to make an educated guess by following the evacuation chain for both battalions around that date, or were they too close to each other?

Phil

[IRC Kevin]

Now I see the problem.

Is it possible to make an educated guess by following the evacuation chain for both battalions around that date, or were they too close to each other?

Phil

Unfortunately Harold Bagnell's place of death would fit both, although it favours 1/6 Cheshires slightly more.

[John_Hartley]

Kevin

As you've realised, this is tricky. In fact, it's more tricky than you think. The full draft was around 200 men. Very few of them actually ended up with 6/Cheshire. As far as I know the "Unlucky Draft" to the Kings Own was the largest group but there's still well over 100 who were scattered around other battalions of the Cheshires and, I think, other regiments. I've nothing in my 6th Cheshires database to indicate where Bagnall was actually serving at the time of his fatal wounding. There are a few men commemorated on Stockport war memorials who are listed as 6th Cheshires, by CWGC, but I have absolutely no idea who they were with - nothing logical seems to fit where they are commemorated/buried.

The war diary is no help - in the several days prior to Bagnall's death, the Cheshires had casualties, so nothing to pinpoint anything.

As aside, I'd appreciate it if you were able to share with me your research about the KORL draft. It was something I didnt get into with the website but as I'm now trying to capture info about anyone who served with 6th Cheshires that would be good stuff to have.

John

[IRC Kevin]

Kevin

As you've realised, this is tricky. In fact, it's more tricky than you think. The full draft was around 200 men. Very few of them actually ended up with 6/Cheshire. As far as I know the "Unlucky Draft" to the Kings Own was the largest group but there's still well over 100 who were scattered around other battalions of the Cheshires and, I think, other regiments. I've nothing in my 6th Cheshires database to indicate where Bagnall was actually serving at the time of his fatal wounding. There are a few men commemorated on Stockport war memorials who are listed as 6th Cheshires, by CWGC, but I have absolutely no idea who they were with - nothing logical seems to fit where they are commemorated/buried.

The war diary is no help - in the several days prior to Bagnall's death, the Cheshires had casualties, so nothing to pinpoint anything.

As aside, I'd appreciate it if you were able to share with me your research about the KORL draft. It was something I didnt get into with the website but as I'm now trying to capture info about anyone who served with 6th Cheshires that would be good stuff to have.

John

With pleasure, John- I'll e-mail you what I've got.

regards,

Kevin

[blue]

According to the local newspaper Harold was serving in the trenches with the Cheshires.( Dosent state which Battalion) on the 29th July and died of his wounds on the 2nd September.

[ss002d6252]

The soldiers effects records have him as 1/6th at time of death.

Craig

[Trones57]

Hi, first posting on the Forum, but an avid reader.

My Great Uncle, Ernest Jackson was an unfortunate member of the "Unlucky Draft", the subject of this thread.

Ernest joined the 3/6 Cheshires on 8th Oct 1915, enrolling in Glossop, Derbyshire. 3/6 was a reserve battalion used to prepare soldiers for active service. Ernest moved with the battalion to Oswestry, Shropshire for training, staying in Park Hall Camp. On 10th July 1916, Ernest arrived in France, as Private in 1/6th Cheshires. Two weeks later, Ernest transferred as part of the "unlucky draft" to 5th Bn Kings Own Royal Lancaster, part of 166th Infantry Brigade of 55th West Lancashire Division. I think the reason being the Cheshires, not currently engaged in active fighting at this time did not need the men but the KORL did.

For the two weeks of his service in 5th Bn KORL, he saw service in the opening stages of the Battle of Guillemont (Aug-Sep 1916). From what I can see from the various war diaries, 1/5th provided working parties (trench digging) during most of this period and was in support during the 8th Aug attack on the village by 165th and 164th Brigade. On the penultimate day of his time at the Front, Ernest was killed in the night of 14th August, digging trenches close to the German lines on a moonlit night. The purpose being to provide provide a new fire trench for the 10th Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers who would be relieving the KORL the next day.

From his death announcement in the Glossop Chronicle on 25th August, I can deduce he was in D Party of this digging operation, led by Captain Hariss (who wrote a letter to his parents, published in the Chronicle). Kevin Shannon in his book "The Lion & the Rose, the 1/5th Battalion the Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, 1914-19" describes the action in great detail (and was a great find for me!) In summary, the men went out armed only with spades. As the war diary says "The men were ordered to dig in a kneeling position as to stand would have been impossible. Casualties were heavy.

Ernest's body was never found and he is named on the Thiepval Memorial and on a memorial at his home town in Chisworth, Derbyshire. Unfortunately, his service records were destroyed in the Second World War so I have found limited information. I have his medal roll card, will, a photo and article from the Glossop Chronicle. Hopefully this might be helpful to anybody researching the 87 men that transferred from the Cheshires. 

Ernest's time with KORL was so short, he is still listed on CWGC as being part of 6th Cheshires although it does say attached to 5th KORL. His service number is 4482

I do wonder if his body was recovered and then buried as an unknown soldier, which cemetery would be the most likely candidate? I think Guillemont Road Cemetery holds soldiers from the later stage of this battle?

If anybody has further information on the "Unlucky Draft" and further info on the events of the night of 14th August 1916. I would be extremely grateful.

best

Stuart

[Matlock1418]

9 minutes ago, Trones57 said:

Hi, first posting on the Forum, but an avid reader.

My Great Uncle, Ernest Jackson was an unfortunate member of the "Unlucky Draft

Welcome to GWF,

Many of wonder about the posibility of a relative being under an 'Unknown' headstone.

Guillemont Road Cemetery holds quite a few.  According to the "In from the Cold Project" = 740 named and 1527 unknowns

You may be interested to know his mother, Letitia, got a dependant's pension of 5/- pw from 6.3.17 after his death - from pension cards at WFA/Fold3

Her address on his/her pension cards was, as CWGC have it, 41 Cottage Lane, Garnesley, Glossop - annotations on one card continue until at least 9/4/1930

M

[Matlock1418]

On 04/10/2014 at 18:23, IRC Kevin said:

4311 Pte Harold Bagnall, Died of Wounds 2 September 1916. Son of William Henry and Isabella Bagnall of 18 Mount Vernon, Poynton, Stockport.

I would be ever so grateful if anyone can cast light on whether this twenty-seven-year-old was actually serving with 6/Cheshires when fatally wounded, or was one of the Unlucky Draft.

Pension records at WFA/Fold3 only say Cheshire Regt.

M

[IRC Kevin]

1 hour ago, Trones57 said:

Hi, first posting on the Forum, but an avid reader.

My Great Uncle, Ernest Jackson was an unfortunate member of the "Unlucky Draft", the subject of this thread.

Ernest joined the 3/6 Cheshires on 8th Oct 1915, enrolling in Glossop, Derbyshire. 3/6 was a reserve battalion used to prepare soldiers for active service. Ernest moved with the battalion to Oswestry, Shropshire for training, staying in Park Hall Camp. On 10th July 1916, Ernest arrived in France, as Private in 1/6th Cheshires. Two weeks later, Ernest transferred as part of the "unlucky draft" to 5th Bn Kings Own Royal Lancaster, part of 166th Infantry Brigade of 55th West Lancashire Division. I think the reason being the Cheshires, not currently engaged in active fighting at this time did not need the men but the KORL did.

For the two weeks of his service in 5th Bn KORL, he saw service in the opening stages of the Battle of Guillemont (Aug-Sep 1916). From what I can see from the various war diaries, 1/5th provided working parties (trench digging) during most of this period and was in support during the 8th Aug attack on the village by 165th and 164th Brigade. On the penultimate day of his time at the Front, Ernest was killed in the night of 14th August, digging trenches close to the German lines on a moonlit night. The purpose being to provide provide a new fire trench for the 10th Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers who would be relieving the KORL the next day.

From his death announcement in the Glossop Chronicle on 25th August, I can deduce he was in D Party of this digging operation, led by Captain Hariss (who wrote a letter to his parents, published in the Chronicle). Kevin Shannon in his book "The Lion & the Rose, the 1/5th Battalion the Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment, 1914-19" describes the action in great detail (and was a great find for me!) In summary, the men went out armed only with spades. As the war diary says "The men were ordered to dig in a kneeling position as to stand would have been impossible. Casualties were heavy.

Ernest's body was never found and he is named on the Thiepval Memorial and on a memorial at his home town in Chisworth, Derbyshire. Unfortunately, his service records were destroyed in the Second World War so I have found limited information. I have his medal roll card, will, a photo and article from the Glossop Chronicle. Hopefully this might be helpful to anybody researching the 87 men that transferred from the Cheshires. 

Ernest's time with KORL was so short, he is still listed on CWGC as being part of 6th Cheshires although it does say attached to 5th KORL. His service number is 4482

I do wonder if his body was recovered and then buried as an unknown soldier, which cemetery would be the most likely candidate? I think Guillemont Road Cemetery holds soldiers from the later stage of this battle?

If anybody has further information on the "Unlucky Draft" and further info on the events of the night of 14th August 1916. I would be extremely grateful.

best

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Glad you found the Lion and the Rose 2 useful. When I was researching for it I went through all the CWGC burial returns I could find looking for clues to help identify any of the 'unknowns' from that and other working parties. Sadly, none of the information I did find was deemed enough for the CWGC to add a name to any headstone. As well as Guillemont Rd cemetery, some of the 'unknowns were reinterred in Serre No. 2. The year the bodies were found seems to have been the key issue as to where they were reburied.

regards,

Kevin

[Trones57]

Hi Matlock and Kevin, thank you very much.

I hadn't looked at the Fold3 cards and that is very interesting info. Letitia was my Great Grand Mother and the address I recognise, spent a lot of time there as a child as my Grand Mother continued to live there. I remember holding his Great War Medal which was stored with the family bible. Now both long gone...

Kevin, your book is excellent and a real source of information for me. I think bodies from that night were discovered for some time afterwards and great efforts were made on the night of the 14th to find the officer in charge who was very popular. Serre No 2 is interesting. When I finally get out there, I will definitely visit and wonder...

 

thanks

best

Stuart