Territorial Force Officers

[Skipman]

Were Territorial Force officers, before 4/8/1914, part time soldiers like other ranks? Would a TF officer, before the outbreak of war, have to have had experience as a regular soldier? Researching a Major, commanding a company, who was later promoted a Lt-Col.

How were TF officers selected?

Mike

[ss002d6252]

Most of the T.F. officers in the 6th dli had no regular experience, the senior officers were solicitors and engineers. The adjutant was a regular officer and the quartermaster was an ex regular.

Craig

[Guest]

Thanks Craig. That appears to the case here, also. I'm surprised (maybe I shouldn't be) I suppose they learnt pretty quick in the front line? Was there an examination at all, or was it just a case of, seems to be made of the right stuff, in charge of a bank/company or a professional, etc etc?

Mike

[ss002d6252]

There were some examinations, I'll take a look through the T.F. regulation tonight. The posts do seem to have gone more to the local 'professionals' and their relatives more often than not pre-war.

Craig

[Guest]

Thanks again Craig. It wasn't something I had thought much about before. There's probably swathes of information on the Forum already, and if anyone knows of threads covering this, please post them. I wonder if this is just another reason why Kitchener was not keen on the TF, and were the New Army officers any different?

Mike

[ss002d6252]

There was an A & B certificate (Examination on tactics, Kings regs, musketry etc) to be completed by 2nd Lieutenant and Lieutenant's respectively before promotion to Captain could be considered. A Captain had to undertake further courses in drill, regimental duties, tactics etc before he would be considered for promotion to Major. A Major had to have demonstrated the ability to command a battalion on exercise before being considered for promotion to Lt Colonel.

There were extra courses in transport, machine guns, musketry etc that most officers were expected to have passed along the way through the ranks.

Craig

[rolt968]

In some rural areas, there were a lot of country gentry and in some cases aristocrats. Somewhere there is a pre war picture of the officers of the Oxfordshire Hussars where the officers included Lord Valencia, the Duke of Marlborough (and eventually Lord Birkenhead - not in the picture) plus Major W. S Churchill who did have some military experience.

It is perhaps worth adding that some TF officers did have Boer War experience, sometimes in the ranks.

R.

[jon_armstrong]

Also a lot of TF officers would have had OTC experience at school or university.

[ss002d6252]

The OTC certificates A and B could be used in place of the T.F. certificates for the basis of qualification for promotion.

Craig

[Steven Broomfield]

In answer to the three questions posed:

Yes

No

I suspect it helped to be able to use the right knife and fork.

[Guest]

I would argue, based on the questions in the OP.

1.They were Officers not soldiers. There is rather a large difference..... but (mostly) part-time nonetheless.

2. Some key permanent staff would be regulars e.g the Adjutant, QM and (often) the CO.

3. While TF officers could command, and often did later during the War, when the TF deployed for war in 1914/15, many pre-War COs were ousted in favour of regulars or ex-Regular officers. There are examples of TF officers rising to very high levels but I think the prejudices reflected in the popular culture at the time (pre-War) were fairly strong.

Mitchinson's volumes on this subject are chapter and verse.

[Guest]

Thank you Martin. The man I am researching went on to be Lt-Col, and I guess he knew which knife and fork to use.

Cheers Mike

[Guest]

Thank you Martin. The man I am researching went on to be Lt-Col, and I guess he knew which knife and fork to use.

Cheers Mike

Certain parts of the TF attracted rather aristocratic men - the Yeomanry in particular - who would have known the knife and fork drill. Despite this key military skill-set the among its amateur Officer ranks, very few Yeomanry regiments deployed with TF Officers in command. One Yeomanry regiment (I can't recall which one) makes this specific point in its history. The first TF Officer to command was regarded as a rather significant event.

I think TF Officers with Boer War experience were regarded in a slightly more positive light. The 1914 Army List shows a liberal distribution of these men across the TF. MG

[bill24chev]

Corrigan mentions, admittedly in a WW2 context, that the Master of a certain Hunt was always the CO of the local Yeomanry Regt. I can't see it as being any different in 1914. But of course The Master/CO may have also had Regular Army service.

[ss002d6252]

1914 Army List - Lt Col:

6th DLI - Lt Col Watson: J.P, local councillor and solicitor

7th DLI - Lt Col Vaux: Member of the Vaux brewery family

8th DLI - Lt Col Blacket: Mine company director & Secretary of the N.East engineering & mining institute (apparently very well regarded for his mine rescue work including personally rescuing men)

9th DLI - Lt Col Simpson: J.P., mine company director & deputy lord lieutenant.

Crag

[Liz Hall]

In the 1/5th Loyal North Lancs the officers were all 'big guns' in the cotton industry: Slater, Hesketh Grierson, Potter even went to take commond of other battalions - MGC, King's Liverpool.

Never mind knives and forks - who has a horse.

[pmaasz]

Picking up on rolt968's comment re. the Oxfordshire Hussars, on mobilization in August 1914 officers included: OC Lieut. Col. Dugdale who had 22 years previous service; 2iC Maj.the Hon Twistleton-Wykeham-Fiennes who had many years service in various campaigns; Adjutant Capt. Bonham-Carter of 19th Hussars; Major JSS Churchill and Capt Scott who had served in the Boer war in the SA Light Horse and the Royal Artillery respectively.

[Guest]

1914 Army List - Lt Col:

6th DLI - Lt Col Watson: J.P, local councillor and solicitor

7th DLI - Lt Col Vaux: Member of the Vaux brewery family

8th DLI - Lt Col Blacket: Mine company director & Secretary of the N.East engineering & mining institute (apparently very well regarded for his mine rescue work including personally rescuing men)

9th DLI - Lt Col Simpson: J.P., mine company director & deputy lord lieutenant.

Crag

According to the May 1915 Army list;

Vaux had seen active service (presumably in South Africa) and was a DSO. Ex Vols and Hon Capt in the Army.

Blackett was (in May 1915) commanding the 2/8th Bn.... the 1/8th Bn was then commanded by Lt Col J Turnbull who also had an active service record (presumably in South Africa), Hon capt in the Army.

Simpson is shown in 2/9th Bn with Lt Col Henderson in command of 1/9th Bn (Capt Res of officers) with active service record (presumably in South Africa)

MG

[ss002d6252]

According to the May 1915 Army list;

Vaux had seen active service (presumably in South Africa) and was a DSO. Ex Vols and Hon Capt in the Army.

Blackett was (in May 1915) commanding the 2/8th Bn.... the 1/8th Bn was then commanded by Lt Col J Turnbull who also had an active service record (presumably in South Africa), Hon capt in the Army.

Simpson is shown in 2/9th Bn with Lt Col Henderson in command of 1/9th Bn (Capt Res of officers) with active service record (presumably in South Africa)

MG

You're correct about Vaux, he served with the Imperial Yeomanry.

Lt Col HC Watson (6th DLI) was only in France little over a week before he was returned home (apparently sick according to newspaper snippets I have but no mention in any of the bde or div diaries or casualty lists). He was replaced by the adjutant, Captain John Jeffreys (Boer War veteran) . Jeffreys served on and off running the battalion for the next few years.

Craig