Lee enfield .303 rifle.

[armourersergeant]

I have always thought that for durability mixed with speed of bolt action ,to accuracy the SMLE could not be beaten but recently i have read that the Mauser 98 was a better weapon and the Ross a better snipers weapon but not so good a general rifle for the trenches.

Comments please.

Arm.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Arm,

Lee Enfield SMLE Mk1 No3 has the advantage of a 10 round magazine and is lighter than the German Mauser. I read somewhere that the Ross was prone to jamming but can't reference that

I had the pleasure of shooting both in my RAOC days and can say that the Lee Enfield had a healthy kick, a smooth action and had an uncomplicated mechanism. The Mauser on the other hand was a different kettle of fish! In my opinion you needed to be a reasonably marksman to use it effectively, it was also a pig if it jammed.

It has been 18 years but fond memories have drifted back as I write!

Ian

[Conor Dodd]

I think that the Ross rifles kept on jamming all the time which isn't the best thing when you are in the middle of a battle and it seems to have been that the only thing that it was really good for was target practice any ideas ?

Conor

[armourersergeant]

Ian,

I have never fired a working Lee Enfield but i have 'pretended' with a deactivated one and i found it to be well balanced and very easy to rapid fire. The bolt was nice and chunky to use but smooth in its action. I can well believe the kick though and when they shortened the N04 in WW2 for the jungle that is supposed to have had a wicked kick more like an elephant than a mule!!!

Arm.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Arm,

Yup but for men of the time it was a relatively 'heavy' weapon. My great-uncle was 5'5'' and 10-11st. I'm 6'3'' and 17st. To me it is OK, but to him it must of been a bit of a beast!

A lot more recoil on the shorter MK5 'Jungle Carbine' which made it very unpopular. It was also a smokey weapon when fired!

In trench warfare you need something easy to maintain, doesn't jam easy and something that is unforgiving for the below average marksman, hence in my opinion SMLE was the 'King'.

Just my view.

Ian

[CROONAERT]

...Although, I believe the Russian Mosin-Nagant was a decent rival. It's slightly shortened WW2 counterpart was preferred to the Mauser K98 by German snipers in the East , 1941-45 anyway.

Dave.

[Broznitsky]

The Ross Rifle: one foot longer than the LE, one pound heavier, more costly, bigger kick, harder to clean in the mud. But the worst part was the jamming. After 15 or 20 rounds of rapid fire, they would often jam. The men would kick at the bolt or use entrenching tools to clear the jam, sometimes wounding themselves when the weapon discharged. One veteran said: "There were some fellows crying in the trenches because they couldn't fire their damned rifles." Nasty business when a battalion of Huns are approaching! The Canadians had to use the Ross until 1916, when finally enough LEs were available.

In 15-16, some men abandoned the Ross on the battlefield, seizing English LEs from fallen British Army men. They used the same .303 bullet, thankfully, so ammo wasn't a problem.

The Ross ended the war as a sniper rifle, quite good apparently for long range, aimed fire.

[mordac]

The Ross rifle had a very checkered history with the CEF. The use of the Ross was a pet project of the Canada's eccentric Minister of Militia, Sam Hughes. Calling Sir Sam an eccentric is being charitable. Hughes was involved in developing and manufacturing the Ross, so he had a vested interest in the weapon.

The Ross required a close tolerance on the diameter of the cartridge. The mass produced Lee-Enfield .303 (used by the CEF) could not consistently maintain the close tolerance required by the Ross. That was the main reason the Ross rife jammed and failed in the field.

The first leader if the Canadian Corps, General Edwin Alderson, tried to persuade Hughes to abandon the Ross and equip the Canadians with the Lee-Enfield .303 instead; it cost Alderson his job. It wasn't until 1916, under General Julian Byng's command, that the Ross was replaced as the weapon used by regular soldiers in the CEF. However, the Ross rifle continued to be used by Canadian Corps snipers until the end of the war.

[Tim Birch]

I have fond memories of shooting competitively with both Mk2 and Mk4 Lee Enfields on the Colchester 500 yd Ranges 40 years ago. It was a lovely weapon to fire once you learnt to handle it.

The kick was OK if you nestled it tightly into the fleshy part of your shoulder, but unforgiving if you held it too loose. When we first started using it most of us sported hefty blue bruises by the end of the session!

The first time I fired a Mk2 was on a 30 yd butt. I was full of apprehension having been warned about the notorious kick, and held it so tightly that my aim went to pot. I remember a distinct sequence of events as I squeezed the trigger. The first thing, which caught me by surprise, was seeing a small spout of sand explode on the butt just to the left of the target, a split second later the rifle punched me in the shoulder, and finally a split second after that I heard the loud bang of the round going off. It all seemed the wrong way round, and was an instant lesson on the fact that light travels a lot faster than sound!

One day when trying to use a Mk4 with a telescopic sight, I got a lovely black eye from holding it fractionally too loose and being whacked in the eye by the sight!

Tim

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Tim,

Sorry mate but when I read about your blackeye

Your experiences have brought back some good memories.

The SMLE's overall shape made it a nice weapon to drill with as well. Could have done with a shorter bayonet though.

Ian

[Guest Hill 60]

It wasn't until 1916, under General Julian Byng's command, that the Ross was replaced as the weapon used by regular soldiers in the CEF.

According to the (CEF) 21st Bn's war diary, the Ross was exchanged for the SMLE on the 23 August 1916, they exhanged about 600.

[Mark Hone]

All the old sweats I know vote for the SMLE over all others, including the later SLR. The one nasty thing I remember about the SLR was that if you didn't quite snap it shut properly after cleaning you stood a chance of ending up with a rat-tail in your eye. I saw it happen once. (Don't mention the SA80...)

[Guest Hill 60]

(Don't mention the SA80...)

I remember when the SA-80 appeared at our barracks and we were told to hand in our Sterlings, not a happy bunch of Redcaps were we!

A colleague of mine was a Cpl in the RGJs. On a patrol in NI one day he, and his brick, took a few rounds. He went firm behind an old camper van and was horrified to see one of his patrol laying in the middle of the road trying to pick up his SA-80 whilst trying to appear as small as possible. His SA-80 was literally in pieces on the floor, it had fallen apart when the lad threw himself on the ground!

My dad collects Lee-Enfields (& Lee-Metfords etc), he also used them from his time in the Army Cadets through to his time in the Army. He reckoned the SMLE (Mark III*) was one of the finest infantry assault weapons ever made. And he should know, he was a marksman with all infantry weapons available at the time.