rd72 Posted 30 September , 2014 Share Posted 30 September , 2014 HI all, I am studying the words of command in use for target indications and this example came up form the 1914 Musketry Regs. I would draw your attention to the phrase "At_____(elevation and deflection)"..... This is very interesting and stands at odds with conventional wisdom and, in fact, all other references to target indication in the manual.... Target indications at the time seem to be worded thus,..... "At the hedge left of barn (object),.... At 400 yds (range),....... FIRE (or RAPID FIRE)" but these have nothing to do with angles.... Does this confusing wording in fact mean "Range (elevation) and Windage (deflection)" This is what I tend to think it does, but why didn't they word it like that? Does anybody have any observations or references that may clarify this confusing wording? Cheers, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 30 September , 2014 Share Posted 30 September , 2014 I seem to remember seeing a photo of an organised group of about a dozen men trying to shoot down an airplane with rifles. Would the command have been used in those circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 30 September , 2014 Share Posted 30 September , 2014 Deflection in this case is used to overcome a side wind, an imaginary aiming point is used. For example ; "1200 ; Enemy's Right Column ; Aiming Mark, Right, Two Targets'Breadths ; Fire" Elevation relates to sighting elevation. This example is taken from Fire Orders, produced at the School of Musketry, Randwick, Australia, 1912. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd72 Posted 30 September , 2014 Author Share Posted 30 September , 2014 clk, No I don't think that it has anything to do with anti aircraft fire as it is taken from the musketry pam and is very much "basic" in nature. Chris, Thanks for the insightful response. I figured that it had something to do with windage (aiming off) ... I don't suppose that there is an online source for that document? Any chance of scanning or taking a photo of the relevant passages? I have found references to aiming off in the 1914 pam but there is no example of the words of command given. Thanks very much, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Henschke Posted 30 September , 2014 Share Posted 30 September , 2014 Rob, pm me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 1 October , 2014 Share Posted 1 October , 2014 (edited) Windage is an American term. Deflection is the British term. At the time of the manual, the standard rifle's (SMLE Mk.III) back sight was adjustable for both elevation (range) and defection. The deflection adjuster was deleted with the introduction of the SMLE Mk.III*. Edited 1 October , 2014 by Beerhunter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 1 October , 2014 Share Posted 1 October , 2014 Windage is an American term. Deflection is the British term. At the time of the manual, the standard rifle's (SMLE Mk.III) back sight was adjustable for both elevation (range) and defection. T Used for shooting at men who were deserting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerhunter Posted 1 October , 2014 Share Posted 1 October , 2014 Good call. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd72 Posted 1 October , 2014 Author Share Posted 1 October , 2014 Thank you all for your responses... I have since found a reference to "deflection", in the same vein as you mention Beerhunter. The article that explains how to set the wind gauge..... Continuing the research... Cheers, Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 1 October , 2014 Share Posted 1 October , 2014 Dear all, I know that I was well off the mark (no pun intended!) with my suggestion, but for interest, does anyone know how infantry, with rifles, would have been instructed to target moving objects such as aircraft? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 2 October , 2014 Share Posted 2 October , 2014 Dear all, I know that I was well off the mark (no pun intended!) with my suggestion, but for interest, does anyone know how infantry, with rifles, would have been instructed to target moving objects such as aircraft? Regards Chris By WW2 a drill had been to set sights at 600yds(?) and aim x aircraft lengths in front (IIRC relic rifles recovered from the sea at Dunkirk often still show this sight setting). I assume that some similar drill would have been established towards the end of WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 October , 2014 Share Posted 5 October , 2014 By WW2 a drill had been to set sights at 600yds(?) and aim x aircraft lengths in front (IIRC relic rifles recovered from the sea at Dunkirk often still show this sight setting). I assume that some similar drill would have been established towards the end of WW1. Yes I believe the targets width method was used in WW1 too. I was for some years an instructor at the SofM successor School of Infantry at Warminster (Salisbury Plain) and often visited the small arms museum there, which had a collection of skill at arms manuals going right back to the formation of the School of Musketry at Hythe. Many hours of interesting reading, although I cannot remember everything that I read . N.B. As late as the Falklands War we were still using rudimentary iron sights and targets width methods to lead off, together with 'observation' of 1-1 tracer, to engage aircraft. An old WW2 manual was also dusted off and brought up-to-date! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 5 October , 2014 Share Posted 5 October , 2014 At a cadet in the '60s, I was taught GRIT - Group, Range, Indication, Type; as in "P'toon, 400, half right - left end of barn, 5 rounds rapid". When was that introduced? It seemed to me so basic that I thought it must've been there for donkey's years. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 October , 2014 Share Posted 5 October , 2014 At a cadet in the '60s, I was taught GRIT - Group, Range, Indication, Type; as in "P'toon, 400, half right - left end of barn, 5 rounds rapid". When was that introduced? It seemed to me so basic that I thought it must've been there for donkey's years. Regards, MikB Before that it was DRINK - Designation, Range, Indication, Number of rounds, Kind of fire. The change to GRIT came with the early 1960s and the end of National Service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 5 October , 2014 Share Posted 5 October , 2014 Before that it was DRINK - Designation, Range, Indication, Number of rounds, Kind of fire. The change to GRIT came with the early 1960s and the end of National Service. Thanks :-) Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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