Trench Mortars

[kildaremark]

I've been going through a higher level war diary that refers to stokes guns and 2" mortars in late 1916.

Does anyone know which one would refer to the Light Trench Mortar Batteries at Brigade level and which refers to the Medium Trench Mortar Batteries at Divisional level?

Thanks

Mark

[centurion]

Stokes mortars were 3 inch light mortars controlled at battalion level and mediums were 2 inch mortars (toffee apples) at brigade level

2 inch medium

Stokes

[RodB]

Light Trench Mortar Batteries. Equipped with the 3 inch Stokes Mortar. Attached to each of the 3 infantry brigades of a division and named after them.

2-inch Medium mortar (2-inch refered to stick diameter, not the bomb size) : initially operated by joint infantry and artillery detachments, eventually it became the responsibility of the Royal Field Artillery. A typical infantry division was equipped with 3 batteries designated X, Y, Z, each with 4 mortars.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-inch_Medium_Mortar#Deployment

This came from my research for the Wikipedia articles for the mortars and the 42nd Division.

Rod

[kildaremark]

Excellent!

Thanks Centurion and Rod.

Mark

[centurion]

I think your Wiki item is slightly misleading

Initially the 2 inch was operated by the infantry with a trench mortar school for the infantry established at Berthen run by a mixture of types including some Royal Artillery officers. An inspection of the units actually using them showed that many of the infantry so trained had failed to grasp some of the basics. Training was improved but to little avail and eventually operation of medium and heavy mortars was transferred to the RA with those soldiers from the original batteries who had shown some competence being attached to the RA (one of my Gt Uncles being one) See account by Lt Col E R Pratt OBE MC Royal Artillery who was involved in 1915/6)

In April 1916 the light trench mortar batteries were reorganised from Battalion level and formed two per brigade each battery initially having four 3.7 inch or 4 inch trench mortars. by June 1916, they had been amalgamated in pairs so that each brigade had one battery of 8 guns, and were standardised on the 3 inch Stokes mortar. They were manned by infantrymen.

In 1917 it was announced that the 2 inch medium was to be replaced in British, Canadian and Australian forces by the Newton 6 inch medium. If one looks at various orders of battle this can be seen happening in the British and Canadian forces but the Australians never completely abandoned the 2 inch and an OoB as late as the end of September 1918 still shows 2 inch mortar batteries (3rd division for example). The Newton 6 inch proved unsuitable for the delivery of chemical rounds (which maybe why the Australians retained the 2 inch) and had to be supplemented with the Stokes 4 inch mortar and increasingly by the Livens

[Chris Henschke]

Stokes mortars were 3 inch light mortars controlled at battalion level and mediums were 2 inch mortars (toffee apples) at brigade level

2 inch medium

2inchMortarBalkanFront.jpg image24th.jpg

Stokes

porsstoke.jpg

No.

"Trench Mortar Batteries are classified as “ light, ” “ medium ” and “ heavy. ”

Light Trench Mortar Batteries form an integral part of an Infantry Brigade, and are, for tactical employment and all administrative purposes, placed directly under the Brigadier Commanding the Infantry Brigade to which allotted.

The Heavy and Medium Batteries are an integral part of, and are administered by the Divisional Artillery."

Reference : TRENCH MORTAR BATTERIES. Instructions re Organization, &c. Third Army Circular Memo. No. 22. Dated 3rd September, 1916. (Revised 18th February, 1917.)

[centurion]

No.

"Trench Mortar Batteries are classified as “ light, ” “ medium ” and “ heavy. ”

Light Trench Mortar Batteries form an integral part of an Infantry Brigade, and are, for tactical employment and all administrative purposes, placed directly under the Brigadier Commanding the Infantry Brigade to which allotted.

The Heavy and Medium Batteries are an integral part of, and are administered by the Divisional Artillery."

Reference : TRENCH MORTAR BATTERIES. Instructions re Organization, &c. Third Army Circular Memo. No. 22. Dated 3rd September, 1916. (Revised 18th February, 1917.)

And if you read my last post you'll see that the definition is correct for Sept 1916 but not completely so for earlier

[Chris Henschke]

Kildaremark's original post relates to late 1916.

[kildaremark]

Just to cloud it a bit more. This War Diary extract from November 1916 suggests to me that the Light TMB at Brigade level and the Medium TMB (Y/35) are armed with the same mortars?

Mark

[RodB]

I'm struck by the relatively small numbers per division. Did the divisions in reserve keep their weapons on the the front line to contribute to daily hate or preparatory bombardments ? Esp. the 2-inch - I understand the RA often did this with its guns.

Rod

[kildaremark]

This is for a trench raid so they are cutting wire and supressing possible German Trench mortar or machine gun emplacements.

[RodB]

WD bombard.jpg

Just to cloud it a bit more. This War Diary extract from November 1916 suggests to me that the Light TMB at Brigade level and the Medium TMB (Y/35) are armed with the same mortars?

Mark

Could be a typo... it refers specically to mortars at brigade level (104th was in the same 35th Division), so it sounds like light Stokes mortars, whose batteries were referred to by brigade and were infantry weapons. As I understand it, medium mortars were operated by the RA and had different emplacement rqmts, operational procedures, tactical use etc so it appears unlikely the normally rigid structure would be deviated from, esp. in a Kitchener division.

Rod