Ordnance Corp Button

[Rob Bulloch]

Hello to the Forum. This button was found somewhere in Sussex and was bought at a car boot sale in Brighton. It is a flat button and under a glass you can see there is the remains of green paint, any information on it would be great.

Thanks in advance Rob.

[T8HANTS]

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/showrecords.php?product=5617

Georgian Artillery button, you 100 years out for WW1

[fellop]

The problem with your link T8HANTS, if I may say so, is you make the assumption that the information is correct, which it is not. A metal detector finds a button with three cannons and three cannonballs on it and makes the incorrect assumption it is Royal Artillery.

The button bears the arms of the Board of Ordnance. Having served for twenty five years in what was the Royal Army Ordnance Corps the history of the Corps and its antecedents are well known to me.

See here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hiddenhistory/3855935545/

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Ordnance

Regards

Peter

[Andrew Upton]

The problem with your link T8HANTS, if I may say so, is you make the assumption that the information is correct, which it is not. A metal detector finds a button with three cannons and three cannonballs on it and makes the incorrect assumption it is Royal Artillery.

The button bears the arms of the Board of Ordnance. Having served for twenty five years in what was the Royal Army Ordnance Corps the history of the Corps and its antecedents are well known to me.

See here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hiddenhistory/3855935545/

And here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Board_of_Ordnance

Regards

Peter

Peter, I fear you owe T8Hants an apology - in the 20th century that is the Ordnance symbol. But in the late 18th/early 19th century period when this particular button is likely to date from the artillery did indeed use this style. The more familiar style of artillery button with the single gun surmounted by the crown was not adopted until relatively late in the 19th century.

[fellop]

Andrew,

Should I have inadvertently made an error then I should of course offer an apology, but I do not believe I have in this case.

The Arms of the Board of Ordnance first appeared in the 17^th century and were later given Royal Approval in 1806. The Arms are: Three Field Pieces on a chief argent with Three Cannon Balls, proper; the grant being confirmed in 1823.

The Board of Ordnance was abolished in 1855 with responsibility passing to the Secretary of State until in 1881 a [new] Ordnance Board was reconstituted.

The Royal Artillery [as we refer to it today] when two companies were raised by royal warrant in 1716 and the title Royal Artillery was first in common use from 1720, though it is true to say that Artillery trains were raised on an as required basis prior to this date.

The mottoes and arms of the Royal Artillery were granted by King William IV in 1832, the arms being: Royal Arms and supporters over a gun with the motto Ubique and Fas et Gloria Ducunt on Scrolls above and below the gun.

The Regiment of Artillery was under the control of the Board of Ordnance until it was abolished in 1855 thereafter the regiment came under the control of the War Office.

The Arms of the Board of Ordnance, three cannons and three cannonballs above has a direct line from the Board of Ordnance [which may trace its origins back to the Master of Ordnance at the Tower of London in or about 1414] and thereafter in some form through the newly formed Ordnance Board in 1881, then through, and with approval from Queen Victoria, the Army Ordnance Department, through the Army Ordnance Corps, through the Royal Army Ordnance Corps and up to today it is included in part in the badge of the Royal Logistics Corps.

Regards

Peter

[Graham Stewart]

Left - Royal Regt of Artillery 1855 - 1873; Right - Royal Regt of Artillery 1873 onwards,

[FROGSMILE]

DSC00792 (640x447).jpgDSC00791 (640x450).jpg

Hello to the Forum. This button was found somewhere in Sussex and was bought at a car boot sale in Brighton. It is a flat button and under a glass there are the remains of green paint, any information on it would be great.

Thanks in advance Rob.

This button was used by the Royal Regiment of Artillery between 1785 and 1802. What a great find to make! From its make up it is the other ranks pattern. The design is the second used by the RA.

[Andrew Upton]

Andrew,

Should I have inadvertently made an error then I should of course offer an apology, but I do not believe I have in this case.

In light of all the posts above, I look forward to you upholding that promise

[Rob Bulloch]

Thank you very much to all for the information, and here was me thinking it was pre Great War. Well it turns out it was pre war, I only missed it by one hundred years! As was pointed out by T8Hants.

Thank you all. Aye Rob.

[auchonvillerssomme]

This is from my collection Royal Artillery buttons. The c1790 button has been reproduced over the years, the one in the OP isn't one of those.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Just for completeness these are from my collection, the predecessors to the RAOC and RASC. You can see the similarity to the button in the OP and why some people may be confused.

And before that.

[fellop]

Apologies for any delay in reply, I have just returned from a couple of days in London during which time I attended Wembley to see the Dolphins beat the Raiders, I am a Broncos man myself but the son in law is a Dolphins fan so for the sake of family unity I supported the cause.

Firstly it seems I do owe an unreserved apology to T8Hants and any others who may have taken an interest in this post. Apology T8Hants.

However and by no means am I attempting to wriggle out of anything, for I am not. If I may just highlight that there may be some confusion, there may not be and it might be the way I am reading and my interpretation of the posts, but I do wish to be clear in that I have not said that this is a AOC or related badge, I did say I had served, and happily so, for 25 years in the RAOC, I also pointed out that the arms of the Board of Ordnance has over time [and still does with the RLC] form part of the badge of the RAOC and its prior incumbents.

But it is correct that the arms of the [original] Board of Ordnance that was to be abolished in 1855 [not to be confused with anything to do with the Ordnance Corps past or present] was three field pieces with three cannon balls above.

Now at the time, and until the abolition of the Board of Ordnance in 1855, the Royal Artillery came under the Board of Ordnance control and it therefore reasonable to assume that they wore buttons bearing the arms of the Board of Ordnance. After the abolition of the Board of Ordnance in 1855 the Royal Artillery came under control of the War Office and it is then correct to see the Royal Artillery buttons change to the

example shown by Graham of three cannons with crown above and later to the more familiar button.

Remember also that other Corps were raised by the Board of Ordnance, the Royal Engineers for example. The Artillery and Engineers and the Ordnance Medical Department were not part of the Army and their officers commissions were issued by the Master General of Ordnance rather than by the Commander in Chief of the Forces. It was not until the abolition of the Board of Ordnance 1855 that these military units came under came under War Office control

That the Artillery may well have worn the buttons as shown in post 1 and as correctly highlighted by T8Hants and others does not, and perhaps this has been my point all along, make them Royal Artillery buttons. It makes them buttons worn by the Royal Artillery that bear the arms of the Board of Ordnance under whose control they came until 1855.

Please also do not confuse the term when I refer to Board of Ordnance [pre 1855] to the AOD, AOC, RAOC, RLC, the word Ordnance is the only main common denominator and that from the present day RLC there is a line of supply and/or repair function that may be traced back as far as the Master of Ordnance at the Tower of London c1414.

However it might be best to leave this here, again an unreserved apology to any member who may feel I have wronged them and perhaps we may all remain friends and if necessary agree to disagree.

Regards

Peter

[T8HANTS]

Apologies accepted Peter, and thank you for raising some interesting points concerning the Board of Ordnance, it’s part of the joy of the forum.

There used to be a very large cast iron water tank abandoned outside one of our Victorian forts with the arms of the Board cast into it accompanied by the letters B.O. We youngsters used to speculated that the old tank was where the soldiers of the garrison used to wash, in order to prevent as the TV advert of the time would constantly remind us, the dreaded B.O..

Gareth

[Rob Bulloch]

Hello to the forum. Thanks to all of the posters and the great information. Although this may be a little off topic I took this photograph at the Newhaven Fort yesterday. It is a cast iron water trough with a very similar badge and the letters B-O which I take to be "Board of Ordnance"

[T8HANTS]

SNAP!

[auchonvillerssomme]

They did display the ordnance arms but it was a button specifically worn by the Royal Artillery. it was also the badge on their shoulder belt plate at the same period (ref (Military) Shoulder Belt Plates and Buttons, Parkyn 1956).

The predecessors to the RAOC/RLC are complicated and a study of their own, and followed lines including all of the support corps, the ones you missed were the ASC/RASC/RCT.

The original question is post 1 was 'any information on it would be great' the answer is simple, it is a Royal Artillery o/r's button circa 1790.

[Rob Bulloch]

Thank you very much everyone for all the information. All the information is great. Royal Artillery o/r's button circa 1790. This little object is now the oldest item in my collection. Thanks again. Aye Rob.

[FROGSMILE]

They did display the ordnance arms but it was a button specifically worn by the Royal Artillery. it was also the badge on their shoulder belt plate at the same period (ref (Military) Shoulder Belt Plates and Buttons, Parkyn 1956).

The predecessors to the RAOC/RLC are complicated and a study of their own, and followed lines including all of the support corps, the ones you missed were the ASC/RASC/RCT.

The original question is post 1 was 'any information on it would be great' the answer is simple, it is a Royal Artillery o/r's button circa 1790.

Yes your final statement is true, although interestingly at the same date the then officer only Corps of Royal Engineers wore the exact same 'design' of button, but in officer quality gilded metal.